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The Rapture when is it?
- Thread starter Yabruf
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Well your understanding is wrong. Amils are amil because it is the simplest, clearest and most Biblical of the eschatological systems. If we wanted to be different from Rome, we'd stop being Trinitarian.
Amil has been about at least since Augustine. If you can't see the difference between Protestantism and Romanism you should study harder.
Not that I can see, but he must answer for himself.Doesn't matter, the influence of Reformed Theology is the likely root of the position he holds.
If you are lumping Amil and Preterism together, it rather suggests that you don't understand either. I would be Premil before I would be Preterist.
I think you'll find it doesn't.
I have a life outside this forum, and at present it involves me writing an extended book review. When I've done that, maybe I'll join in. Until then, if you go to Eschatology | Martin Marprelate | Page 3 and rummage about, you will find the transcriptions of 14 Bible studies on Revelation 4-22 which I gave a few years ago.
And you.
I can give you a precise date: immediately before the Return of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). It's worth comparing those verses with the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins.
ChrisTheSaved
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We will know it when we see it.
Revelation 2:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 2:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established. Dt 19
16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. Mt 18
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word established. 2 Cor 13
16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. Mt 18
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word established. 2 Cor 13
The trifold declaration of scripture is “this generation” is that of the 1st century, contemporary with Christ and the apostles:
Matthew:
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
Mark:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9
29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13
Luke:
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Lk 9
31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21
The very simple hermeneutic of comparing scriptures plainly shows the synonomy of 'some will not taste of death', and, 'this generation will not pass away', and the synonomy of 'His coming,' and, 'the coming of the kingdom'.
It is a concise timeline that Revelation gives:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3
I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12
And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20
As to the first question, British Baptists are divied up just like we are in the States. It's just that the divisions arose over different issues. As to the second, the early 17th Century if not before. Though the latter lacks documentation.
Our church is a reformed Independent Evangelical Church, we are nearer to Grace Baptists than most Evangelical Churches/ We are currently seeking a pastor and get many of our visiting preachers from Graced Baptist Churches. The two Baptist churches in our town belong to the Baptist Union and are both part of Churches together and at least one, and I think both introduce RC elements like lent.
Our last pastor was from a Grace Baptist Church.
Our church doesn't have a policy on end times, except that we will meet the Lord in the air and he will return. At one time we had two dispensational members, now both with the Lord. I can guess that one current member is PMD and another is probably a-mil.
BOTH Preterest and A-mill came from RCC. They were NOT found in the early church.
Augustine of Hippocrites came up with the idea of a-millennialism, and the RCC adopted it because it prevented them from having to acknowledge their own history of both anti-semitism and the rebuke of God for being involved in politics.
Jesuit Luis De Alcazar came up with the scheme of preterism, because he wanted something to refute tribulation and premillennial thinking. It is historically accurate that the RCC pushed the teaching (though did not outrightly adopt it in favor of a-mill) as a way to bring confusion and separate brethren in the protestant ranks.
What is highly concerning to my own Spirit, is that how some who want to puff up the Scriptures as the final authority will accept these two as having Scripture support.
I am pre-mill because that is what is the basic clearly taught theology of both the earliest of the church and the Scriptural statements of both prophets and NT writers.
Certainly, there was great trouble when Rome sacked Jerusalem and chased down all other rebellions around 70AD.
But, there were not millions of various groupings that were persecuted and slain as was during the Hitler reign. Those years were horrible and far greater then that of 70 AD.
However, there is a tribulation that is coming.
A time when the U.S. will be no more.
A time when the dead of the salty sea and fresh water will be as a stench across the whole world.
A time when volcanic destruction will plunge the earth into darkness.
A time when people will find salvation, but not that of God, but a temporary solution.
A time when two witnesses will lay for days in the street while people around the world celebrate their death.
A time that will occur around the world as has never occurred, and yet few will come to an understanding and knowledge of God.
Augustine of Hippocrites came up with the idea of a-millennialism, and the RCC adopted it because it prevented them from having to acknowledge their own history of both anti-semitism and the rebuke of God for being involved in politics.
Jesuit Luis De Alcazar came up with the scheme of preterism, because he wanted something to refute tribulation and premillennial thinking. It is historically accurate that the RCC pushed the teaching (though did not outrightly adopt it in favor of a-mill) as a way to bring confusion and separate brethren in the protestant ranks.
What is highly concerning to my own Spirit, is that how some who want to puff up the Scriptures as the final authority will accept these two as having Scripture support.
I am pre-mill because that is what is the basic clearly taught theology of both the earliest of the church and the Scriptural statements of both prophets and NT writers.
Certainly, there was great trouble when Rome sacked Jerusalem and chased down all other rebellions around 70AD.
But, there were not millions of various groupings that were persecuted and slain as was during the Hitler reign. Those years were horrible and far greater then that of 70 AD.
However, there is a tribulation that is coming.
A time when the U.S. will be no more.
A time when the dead of the salty sea and fresh water will be as a stench across the whole world.
A time when volcanic destruction will plunge the earth into darkness.
A time when people will find salvation, but not that of God, but a temporary solution.
A time when two witnesses will lay for days in the street while people around the world celebrate their death.
A time that will occur around the world as has never occurred, and yet few will come to an understanding and knowledge of God.
It has occurred to me that perhaps "Grace Baptist" is being used by you as an indication of a grouping of associated churches. Is that correct?
Here in the US, the Baptists come in various forms even among the groupings. For example, the SBC has churches that are oriented toward the doctrines of Grace and some that are opposed to the Doctrines of Grace. The independent churches may fall into groupings of IFB, GARB, ...
I take it that the "Grace Baptist" in England may be more oriented toward non-calvinistic trends in comparison to the Ind. Evangelical Churches?
I had a friend that told me that politically you all are switched, too. That your conservatives are aligned more toward socialism, then the liberal party? Here in the US, the conservatives are the right wing, and the others are all left out.
After the reformation, many non Anglicans were persecuted and fled to the Netherlands and were known as dissenters. The dutch were Presbytarians. and the dissenters became Presbyterians. (Quoting C B Jewson from memory in his History of Baptists in Norfolk.) When they began to return to England in 1640 they soon changed to Baptists. The baptists in the county of Norfolk were all Particular Baptists. The General Baptists came later from outside the county.
My Great Grandparents were married in a Particular Baptist Church in Norwich, St Mary's Baptist Church.
My GGF's two sisters were also members of that church but later emigrated to Brisbane, QL,Australia. They were members of a Particular Baptist Church called Jireh Chapel. The younger, Martha, b ecame the first Brisbane missionary to India, now Bangla Desh. Another member of the Jewson family from The St Mary's Baptist Church became a missionary to Calcutta, and he baptised Martha's Converts.
It has occurred to me that perhaps "Grace Baptist" is being used by you as an indication of a grouping of associated churches. Is that correct?
I had a friend that told me that politically you all are switched, too. That your conservatives are aligned more toward socialism, then the liberal party? Here in the US, the conservatives are the right wing, and the others are all left out.
Grace Baptists were named strict Baptists, in the past, and would be called Calvinist. They usually belong to a local association. There are also Gospel Standard Baptists, who are 'Strict and Particular' and ultra Calvinist. There are probably other groupings but I don't know of any in our area.
In 1851 the government conducted a religious census which all religious organisations had to complete. The census for our county, Kent, was printed by the local history society and it was quite a large volume. There were quite a number of Baptist groupings in there. Calvinist, Freewill, Unitarian, Particular, General, are the ones I remember. but I am sure there were more.
Regarding the Political Parties, The Labour are socialist. the Liberals are well I am not sure, probably nearer to socialist. In the previous government, the Liberals joined a coalition with the Conservatives , but they would have joined with Labour if the figures would work out. They mainly want to be involved on Govt, with whoever. UKIP seems to be breaking up since Nigel Farage (not fromage as someone called him) retired from being the leader. Conservatives are right wing and further from socialism.
You are all wrong. It was yesterday. You all missed it!
TC!... You left and... LEFT ME BEHIND
... I didn't know you could post from UP THERE?... AH!
... Where are you?... Brother Glen
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You say my understanding is wrong, but what you do not understand is that this is understanding acquired through discussion with both Protestants and Catholics.
I will say it again...both spiritualize the Scriptures in the same fashion.
And...stop wearing the funny outfits.
Amil has been about at least since Augustine. If you can't see the difference between Protestantism and Romanism you should study harder.
I didn't say there wasn't a difference in their doctrine, what I am talking about is their similarity in viewing much of Prophecy as figurative to the point where it takes on a new meaning. Rather than how Prophecy has always been fulfilled...literally.
That's a little better, but me, I'll stick with Biblically accurate.
Pre-Trib Pre-mil.
No, actually...nobody is going to find that it isn't. The only way is to nullify a great deal of Prophecy (and you can start with the thousand years of Revelation 20), say it will not be fulfilled, and then you are free to interpret outside of the boundaries of what is actually said.
One example is trying to make the Three Judgments (Seal, Trumpet, and Vial) the same judgments speaking of the same events just told at different times.
Great, so don't even start, if you are not going to give your antagonist the courtesy of responding to the points raised.
And by the way, what's the book you are reviewing about? If you don't mind me asking. Just curious.
When I've done that, maybe I'll join in. Until then, if you go to Eschatology | Martin Marprelate | Page 3 and rummage about, you will find the transcriptions of 14 Bible studies on Revelation 4-22 which I gave a few years ago.
The problem with going there is there is no-one there to address and respond to the errors I would point out.
But I understand, Martin, you are a busy man, so just understand I am asking that you not start something you don't have the time to fully devote a serious response to.
God bless.
'Grace Baptist' is a grouping of around 150-200 churches that would once have been called Particular Baptist. They adhere to the1689 Confession. They are probably nearest to ARBCA in the USA, but most of tem aren't quite that strict (tho' some of them are!).
Some of them go back a very long way. I sometimes preach at one that was founded in 1653. Newhouse Baptist Church – Newhouse Independent Baptist Church, Smeatharpe, Devon – Evangelical …
I will respond to your errors if you post there.The problem with going there is there is no-one there to address and respond to the errors I would point out.
I understand. If I join in, I will be prepared to carry on the discussion.
It's called Warlike Christians in an Age of Violence and as the title suggests it's about Christian attitudes to war. The writer is a Baptist and a University lecturer in geography and politics, and a colleague of my daughter who gave me the book as a Christmas present. When I've finished the review I will post it on my blog and link to it here.
I know you must have a reason why you quoted these...would you mind sharing that was was?
You ignore the First point raised that shows your understanding is incorrect: Christ did not return in the First Century.
We also look at the fact that the Elect were not gathered.
The Kingdom those who live physically after Christ's Return (contrasted with the utter destruction of all unbelievers) was not established in the First Century. And don't try to say this was the Spiritual Kingdom of God, because Christ established that some 35 years earlier.
The generation in view are those who see the signs of Christ's Return, and this is a necessity because we cannot have the Prophecy fulfilled without the Return, the gathering of the Elect, the physical destruction of all unbelievers, and the establishment of the Kingdom.
Address those points. Show why Christ need not return for Matthew 24-25 to have been fulfilled in the First Century.
I agree, and I gave you numerous Scriptures to compare. And the very simple point that you cannot have Matthew 24-25 fulfilled (much less Revelation) apart from the Return, the gathering of the Elect, the physical destruction of all unbelievers, and the establishment of the Kingdom.
Well, we see the events of Revelation taking place at the time of the writing as well, but, that doesn't mean it referred to that time, does it?
Secondly, tradition holds that Revelation was penned in AD 90-95, yet you embrace an early writing, right?
Third, the words translated "shortly come to pass" can also be taken in a sense of coming to pass...speedily.
Here are a few verses with the same words and the same structure:
Luke 18:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
See the link and compare that with your proof text:
Revelation 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Here is another one:
Acts 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
This verse...
Revelation 22:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
...is one you should think about, because it adds another aspect which denies a First Century fulfillment, and that...
We didn't see the Eternal State one thousand years after the First Century.
Do you think we are in the new heavens and earth that is created when things things are...shortly done?
And you and I are still awaiting HIs Return, aren't we?
That negates a First Century fulfillment. Maybe a partial fulfillment as we saw with Antiochus Epiphanes, but not The Fulfillment.
You mean...Satan is bound already?
But wait, that means he was loosed from the pit in the Eleventh Century, and cast into Hell, and the Great White Throne Judgment has already taken place...
But KRN...you aren't keeping the words of the Prophecy of this Book...you are nullifying them.
If the Word of God states that these things will take place, you can bet you beer can (and its safe to bet the ones in the back of your truck too, they're equally safe)...
...its going to happen.
And when it does happen, it will be swift:
Matthew 24:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
God bless.
Your application is all wrong. Just as lightning lights up the entire sky from the east to the west, so shall the of the Son of man be in his day, His PRESENCE will be EVERYWHERE. And it won't be visible to the eye [Luke 17:20-21], we have not come to a mount that might be touched [Hebrews 12:18].
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming [PRESENCE] of the Son of man.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17
But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14
And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming [PRESENCE] of the Son of man.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17
But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14
And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4
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So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10
And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27
Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11
And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12
.....and so on.
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10
And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27
Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11
And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12
.....and so on.
Good luck in the search for a new one, I pray God blesses your fellowship with a great one.
We have a lot of variety among our Independent Fundamental fellowships also, but the bottom line is that usually the leadership sets the stage.
I actually decided to find a new fellowship based on a number of opposing views I have with the leadership, as well as not satisfied with the direction the fellowship has taken in the last 3-4 years. It has in my view, become more business-like, and the preaching style of the Pastor has changed from Expository Preaching to preaching that is a little on the "dramatic" side.
Doesn't mean I don't still love the guy, but time to find a new home.
And oddly, as much as he leans towards a Reformed view, he actually takes a more "free-will" position than I care for. He told me once, when I asked him his position, and he replied, "Well, I look at it this way, the devil votes against you, God votes for you, and you...cast the deciding vote." lol
Well, sadly Eschatology has taken a back seat for a great many great men of God, who's ministries were fantastic but they simply did not get involved in end times issues.
From my perspective, our Soteriology is dependent on a sound Eschatology, and given the amount of Prophecy throughout Scripture, I would think it would be given more attention than it often does. But that is just my view. I don't look down on those who aren't interested in it.
God bless.
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