37818
Well-Known Member
It is a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. It is a covenant which God made and He alone keeps. He accompliised it with the death, burial and resurrection of His Son. It includes many details. Titus 1:2.
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The rapture.
- Thread starter 37818
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wherefore, he saith, 'Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, from Eph 4:8
knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; Rom 6:9
What, captivity was captured, when Christ ascended on high?
37818
Well-Known Member
All OT saints to Heaven. Isaiah 61:1.
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Read the next verse EPH 4:9
MB
Didn't you read my answer?My original point was that the OT saints heard the gospel and were saved and set free from there confinement. David in'
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Your arguing about the Saints having the Holy Spirit. I'm arguing that the captives are those in hell with David. The above 2 verses state that David was in Hell.Being held captive.
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) . . ." OK. How do you think that changes the interpretation of v.8?
". . . When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, . . ."
The second death is mentioned only 4 times.
Rev, 2:11, 20:6 & 14, 21:8
Rev. 20:14 states "And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
Rev. 20:6 states "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and Christ,and shall reign with Him a thousand years".
It is evident that if one is to escape the second death (the lake of fire), one must be in the first resurrection.
Rev. 20:4 tells us that those who were beheaded, did not worship the beast, did not take his mark, will reign a thousand years with Christ.
This is definitely speaking of the Saints that the antichrist makes war on for 1260 days during the tribulation.
Rev. 6:9-11 is the fifth seal opening.
There are souls under the throne who have been killed who ask when their death will be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and breather should be killed as they were.
It is evident that these are in the first resurrection, therefore the first resurrection must come after these Saints are killed during the tribulation.
You can not have a first resurrection before the tribulation because to do so those under the throne and those killed by the antichrist and those who survive the tribulation would not have a part in the first resurrection.
And Scriptures clearly states that they are in the FIRST resurrection.
The first resurrection must include all believers, those who die before and during the tribulation and those who survive the tribulation.
1 Cor. 15:51-52 states that we ALL will not sleep but we shall ALL be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST trump.
All means all. None excluded.
First means first. None precedes.
Last means last. None to follow.
Rev, 2:11, 20:6 & 14, 21:8
Rev. 20:14 states "And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".
Rev. 20:6 states "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and Christ,and shall reign with Him a thousand years".
It is evident that if one is to escape the second death (the lake of fire), one must be in the first resurrection.
Rev. 20:4 tells us that those who were beheaded, did not worship the beast, did not take his mark, will reign a thousand years with Christ.
This is definitely speaking of the Saints that the antichrist makes war on for 1260 days during the tribulation.
Rev. 6:9-11 is the fifth seal opening.
There are souls under the throne who have been killed who ask when their death will be avenged. They are told they must wait until their fellow servants and breather should be killed as they were.
It is evident that these are in the first resurrection, therefore the first resurrection must come after these Saints are killed during the tribulation.
You can not have a first resurrection before the tribulation because to do so those under the throne and those killed by the antichrist and those who survive the tribulation would not have a part in the first resurrection.
And Scriptures clearly states that they are in the FIRST resurrection.
The first resurrection must include all believers, those who die before and during the tribulation and those who survive the tribulation.
1 Cor. 15:51-52 states that we ALL will not sleep but we shall ALL be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST trump.
All means all. None excluded.
First means first. None precedes.
Last means last. None to follow.
My KJV says hell but no matter David was not in heaven. He knew the Lord would not leave him there and he knew the Holy One would come and tell him the path to life. No one is Saved with out Christ. So He had to hear the gospel and believe in Christ to have eternal life.This was my point because so many here assume that men were saved before Christ. If this were so then there would have been no need for Christ to die for our sins. The Law and sacrifices would have done the job instead.
MB
They were saved just as we are today. They were saved believing just as we are today. They were saved based on what Christ was going to do, we are saved based on what He has done. It is incorrect to say they were not saved.
Further, the HG acted largely externally, in this church age He acts internally. During the trib when He is removed He will then act ecternally once again.
I have never found scripture that backs this up. So explain the why of your belief of it. Why would David say he was in hell? Why did he need to hear the path of life if He believed in Christ in Advance? Then who were the captives?.
MB
Ill have to go more into detail later. Right now im on my phone. I will say that David never said he would be in hell as in the place of punishment. That is your interpretation. Not scripture.
Why do you believe believers would go to hell? Do you believe they could hear the gospel in hell and then be saved in hell?
Scripture says David was in hell.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
I have only quoted this and if it's in scripture then it has to be true. You called it the grave. If OT saints were saved then why did Jesus have to die to save us. The blood of bulls and other animals did not cleanse them of there sin. They could not be saved until they were cleansed. The Law did not save them. Christ had not even appeared yet so how is it they believed to Salvation? David said;" Thou wilt shew me the path of life" you would think He knew the path to life but he did not.. This is why the old testiments Saints were not really saints until they heard the gospel which they did not have until Christ. I can't put the cart before the horse and neither did they. Even during the time of Christ Jews were convinced that the Messiah was going to come and free them from there oppression. This is why they didn't believe Jesus was the Christ. They weren't looking for the right kind of deliverance.
MB.
So I just want to clarify your position. You believe the following:
1. All OT Saints were not saved
2. All OT saints went to hell as in the place of punishment
3. All OT saints did not believe in the gospel
4. All OT saints had to have Jesus go to hell (the place of punishment) to preach the gospel to them
5. While in hell (the place of punishment) at least some OT saints heard the gospel preached to them from Jesus and believe and then were saved
Have I correctly clarified your position? I am not saying this is your position, I am saying this is the way I have understood what you are saying and I am asking for clarification from you. Help me out here by answering yes or no to all 5 points. Thanks for your help
the points you want clarified;
1. All OT Saints were not saved
Answer;
I believe believers were set aside not in a place of torment but a place of waiting such as Abraham's bosom. One commentary said it was paradise and it was located in hell. A separated protected place from the torment.Where there dead believing spirits would go.
2. All OT saints went to hell as in the place of punishment
Answer;
Hell yes, but no torment
3. All OT saints did not believe in the gospel.
Answer;
They did not have the gospel of Jesus Christ. not to mention most when Christ came believed that the messiah would free them from oppression. Salvation as we know it wasn't understood.
4. All OT saints had to have Jesus go to hell (the place of punishment) to preach the gospel to them
Answer;
The Bible calls it hell.In Ps 16 it is not reffered to as a place of torment. This is your assumption
5. While in hell (the place of punishment) at least some OT saints heard the gospel preached to them from Jesus and believe and then were saved
answer;
You are really fixed on a place of torment. I've not stated that at all. David describes being told the path of life which has to be the gospel and it was David that called the place he was in, :"Hell".
How do you explain Psalm 16?
Remember Christ ascended and also descended in to the earth.
Christ descended to the grave not hell. Your view is unorthodox
I believe scripture not the sayings of men. If you right then the Bible is unorthodox that is saying the Bible isn't true.Psalm 16 says hell it does not say grave. it says sheol in other translations yet they are all the same thing. No to mention Christ was placed in a tomb not buried in the ground.
I'm really disappointed your argument is with what does scripture say. and then you say it is unorthodox. a round about way of saying it isn't true
MB