The rapture.

[Revmitchell]

I disagree again with you. The old testament saints will precede the present church the resurrection of the dead shall rise first and just to prove this David wrote;
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

If David hoped for his flesh certainly when Christ set the captives free david heard the gospel and believed. He obviously was looking forward to it.
MB

Not to be dense but how do you see those verses supporting your point?

 

[Pete Stepanovich]

Regardless of one's eschatological view, I cannot understand how one can deny ". . . shall be caught up . . ." -in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

The rapture in the end days is very clear in the Bible. Hell is eventually going to become what we are living on now. Earth is going to become what we know of today as mainstream society, such as secular lifestyles, and the only true Christains that withstood the world and grew their faith will be taken to a new world where a higher purpose serves. This would be heaven. And the path to eternity may be referred to as the narrow path, vs the easy wide path.

 

[MB]

Not to be dense but how do you see those verses supporting your point?

When Christ body was in the tomb His Spirit went to set the captives free. The old testament prophets were in Abraham 's bosom. Christ said;

Luk_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,.

The Captives are those in Abraham's bosom. David was one of those captives there. David wrote;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

There is only one path of life and that is the gospel. David heard the gospel and was saved as was all who believe the gospel and Jesus Christ
You said;

The HG will no lo ger be indwelling people but will be active externally onky as was in the ot

Where does scripture say the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who believe during the trib? This comes from believing that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and He may be but the Holy Spirit is omnipresent and is not only with in the believer but also in heaven and on the earth at the same time. He is every where. There is no place you can go where He isn't present.
Please show scripture where it says the Holy Spirit will no longer indwell believers.
MB

 

[37818]

The rapture in the end days is very clear in the Bible. Hell is eventually going to become what we are living on now. Earth is going to become what we know of today as mainstream society, such as secular lifestyles, and the only true Christains that withstood the world and grew their faith will be taken to a new world where a higher purpose serves. This would be heaven. And the path to eternity may be referred to as the narrow path, vs the easy wide path.

That there is a rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not at issue. At issue, from my understanding, is the rapture will not in any way take place prior to any resurrected believers per 1 Thessaloinians 4:15, period. Like Revelation 20:4-6. It is the same Greek imphatic no, which is translated "never" in John 10:28.

 

[37818]

The bride of Christ does not include OT Saints or trib saints

And where in Scripture do you find this information?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

And where in Scripture do you find this information?

What is the Church Age? Where does the Church Age fit in biblical history?

What is the Church Age?

Question: "What is the Church Age? Where does the Church Age fit in biblical history?"

Answer: An “age” is an historical period of time or an era. Some historians divide human history into many epochs and name them according to their defining characteristics: Middle Ages, Modern Age, Postmodern Age, etc. Biblical history, too, can be divided into different eras. When those divisions emphasize God’s interaction with His creation, we call them dispensations. More broadly, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.

The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

The Church is composed of those individuals who have by faith accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and Lord (John 1:12; Acts 9:31). Therefore, the Church is people rather than denominations or buildings. It is the Body of Christ of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Greek word ecclesia, translated “church,” means “a called-out assembly.” The Church is universal in scope but meets locally in smaller bodies.

The Church Age comprises the entire dispensation of Grace. “The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17). For the first time in history, God actually indwells His creatures, permanently and eternally. In other dispensations the Holy Spirit was always present and always at work, but He would come upon people temporarily (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:14). The Church Age is marked by the Holy Spirit’s permanent indwelling of His people (John 14:16).

Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church (1 Corinthians 10:32). There is some overlap because, individually, many Jews believe in Jesus as their Messiah and are therefore part of the Church. But God’s covenants with the nation of Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Those promises await fulfillment during the Millennial Kingdom, after the Church Age ends (Ezekiel 34; 37; 45; Jeremiah 30; 33; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 19).

The Church Age will end when God’s people are raptured out of the world and taken to be with the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:51-57). The rapture will be followed in heaven by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9) as the Church, the Bride of Christ, receives her heavenly reward. Until then, the Church carries on in hope, exhorted to “stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).

 

[37818]

What is the Church Age? Where does the Church Age fit in biblical history?

What is the Church Age?

Question: "What is the Church Age? Where does the Church Age fit in biblical history?"

Answer: An “age” is an historical period of time or an era. Some historians divide human history into many epochs and name them according to their defining characteristics: Middle Ages, Modern Age, Postmodern Age, etc. Biblical history, too, can be divided into different eras. When those divisions emphasize God’s interaction with His creation, we call them dispensations. More broadly, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.

The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost (Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. In prophetic history, it falls between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11). Jesus predicted the Church Age in Matthew 16:18 when He said, “I will build my church.” Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.

The Church is composed of those individuals who have by faith accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and Lord (John 1:12; Acts 9:31). Therefore, the Church is people rather than denominations or buildings. It is the Body of Christ of which He is the head (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Greek word ecclesia, translated “church,” means “a called-out assembly.” The Church is universal in scope but meets locally in smaller bodies.

The Church Age comprises the entire dispensation of Grace. “The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17). For the first time in history, God actually indwells His creatures, permanently and eternally. In other dispensations the Holy Spirit was always present and always at work, but He would come upon people temporarily (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:14). The Church Age is marked by the Holy Spirit’s permanent indwelling of His people (John 14:16).

Scripture makes a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church (1 Corinthians 10:32). There is some overlap because, individually, many Jews believe in Jesus as their Messiah and are therefore part of the Church. But God’s covenants with the nation of Israel have not yet been fulfilled. Those promises await fulfillment during the Millennial Kingdom, after the Church Age ends (Ezekiel 34; 37; 45; Jeremiah 30; 33; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 19).

The Church Age will end when God’s people are raptured out of the world and taken to be with the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:51-57). The rapture will be followed in heaven by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9) as the Church, the Bride of Christ, receives her heavenly reward. Until then, the Church carries on in hope, exhorted to “stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).

How does this prove that aussertion?

The bride of Christ does not include OT Saints or trib saints

 

[37818]

The rapture in the end days is very clear in the Bible. Hell is eventually going to become what we are living on now. Earth is going to become what we know of today as mainstream society, such as secular lifestyles, and the only true Christains that withstood the world and grew their faith will be taken to a new world where a higher purpose serves. This would be heaven. And the path to eternity may be referred to as the narrow path, vs the easy wide path.

The rapture is only explicirly referred to as "shall be caught up" in -Thessalonians 4:17. And will not in any take place pior to the resurrection of the dead in Jesus. And as such cannot in any way exclude any of the dead in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 1:15.

 

[Revmitchell]

And where in Scripture do you find this information?

Show me one place in the OT where it says OT Saints are indwelt with the HG.

When Christ body was in the tomb His Spirit went to set the captives free. The old testament prophets were in Abraham 's bosom. Christ said;

Luk_4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,.

The Captives are those in Abraham's bosom. David was one of those captives there. David wrote;
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

How did you come to the conclusion that the captives are those in Abraham's bosom?

There is only one path of life and that is the gospel. David heard the gospel and was saved as was all who believe the gospel and Jesus Christ
You said;

Where does scripture say the Holy Spirit will not indwell those who believe during the trib? This comes from believing that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and He may be but the Holy Spirit is omnipresent and is not only with in the believer but also in heaven and on the earth at the same time. He is every where. There is no place you can go where He isn't present.
Please show scripture where it says the Holy Spirit will no longer indwell believers.
MB

The Holy Ghost being present everywhere has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Spirit. First the indwelling of the Spirit is a earnest payment to the church (Ephesians 1:13-14) Jesus said that it was necessary that He go so that the comforter would come (John 16:7). The Holy Spirit is the restrainer (2 Thess 2:7-8) . With regards to the restrainer it has been noted that:

"By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other suggestions fall far short of the meeting the requirements...To Achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead."

Gerald Stanton, "Kept from the Hour" p.110

Further:

"The fact that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, to be removed from the earth before the trinulation period begins, must not be interpreted to mean the the Holy Spirit is no longer omnipresent, nor operative in the age. The Spirit will work in and through men. It is only insisted that the particular ministries of the Holy spirit to the believe in this present age(baptism 1 Cor 12:12-13; indwelling, 1 Cor 6:919-20; sealing Eph 1:13; 4:30; and filling Eph 5:18) do terminate."

Dwight Pentecost, "Things To Come" pgs. 262-263

Just like the comparison between the pre-trib rapture vs. the Second Coming of Christ shows these are two very different events so does the comparison of the role of the Holy Spirit with the OT and Tribulation Saints vs. the church are also very different as I have shown here.

 

[MB]

Show me one place in the OT where it says OT Saints are indwelt with the HG.


How did you come to the conclusion that the captives are those in Abraham's bosom?
[\QUOTE]
Luk_16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Notice that Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom. Not to heaven or paradise

Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Then in hell the richman could see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. They were in the same location but separated by being in Abraham's bosom. David called it hell where he was. Though he wasn't in torture. Abraham's bosom was a waiting place. Where believers in God waited to hear the path of life from Christ Him Self. The gospel in other words.. The gospel set them free from judgement and they will be resurrected in the rapture.

The Holy Ghost being present everywhere has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Spirit. First the indwelling of the Spirit is a earnest payment to the church (Ephesians 1:13-14) Jesus said that it was necessary that He go so that the comforter would come (John 16:7). The Holy Spirit is the restrainer (2 Thess 2:7-8) . With regards to the restrainer it has been noted that:

Just because you say so does not make it so. The truth is the restrainer being the Holy Spirit is not stated in scripture. His Identity is not revealed in scripture.

"By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other suggestions fall far short of the meeting the requirements...To Achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead."

Gerald Stanton, "Kept from the Hour" p.110

Further:

"The fact that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, to be removed from the earth before the trinulation period begins, must not be interpreted to mean the the Holy Spirit is no longer omnipresent, nor operative in the age. The Spirit will work in and through men. It is only insisted that the particular ministries of the Holy spirit to the believe in this present age(baptism 1 Cor 12:12-13; indwelling, 1 Cor 6:919-20; sealing Eph 1:13; 4:30; and filling Eph 5:18) do terminate."

Dwight Pentecost, "Things To Come" pgs. 262-263

Just like the comparison between the pre-trib rapture vs. the Second Coming of Christ shows these are two very different events so does the comparison of the role of the Holy Spirit with the OT and Tribulation Saints vs. the church are also very different as I have shown here.

Yes but you still have'nt shown where scripture says the tribulation Saints are with out the Spirit. The reason you haven;t is because this is not in scripture I do not care for the speculation of men about it with out them being present for questioning.

The holy Spirit being the restrainer is speculation at best, elimination only makes it possible. To assume something is what Calvinist do. I can't do that. It's a mystery for a reason. I don't know the reason and I don't believe anyone else does either.The restrainer could be the church it self.
Don't misunderstand what I'm saying, it is not that the Holy Spirit is or isn't. I don't know God knows we don't. We can't know for sure because we are just men.
MB

 

[MB]

Rev Mitchell;
Is your only answer to my question a question?

Show me one place in the OT where it says OT Saints are indwelt with the HG.

How is it you expect me to answer a misnomer ?
MB

 

[37818]

Show me one place in the OT where it says OT Saints are indwelt with the HG.

OT saints did not receive the HS the same way NT saints did after Pentecost, and OT saints when they died went to Sheol and not to Heaven then too. The location of the OT saints change when Christ ascend to Heaven (Ephesians 4:8) the interpreation of ". . . He led captivity captive, . ." taking them to be with Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

OT saints did not receive the HS the same way NT saints did after Pentecost,.

Ok I agree with that. My point exactly

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev Mitchell;
Is your only answer to my question a question?

How is it you expect me to answer a misnomer ?
MB

See my post # 89

 

[MB]

See my post # 89

I have read it and there is no scriptural proof of Trib. saints not being indwelt. not from you or the men you quoted.
MB

 

[37818]

Ok I agree with that. My point exactly

How does that prove that the promise to the OT saints does not apply to the OT saints?

". . . Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: . . ."

 

[Revmitchell]

How does that prove that the promise to the OT saints does not apply to the OT saints?

". . . Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: . . ."

Did you mean, in the second case, NT Saints?

 

[Revmitchell]

I have read it and there is no scriptural proof of Trib. saints not being indwelt. not from you or the men you quoted.
MB

I believe it does. Further, you didn't answer my question. How did you come to the conclusion that those captives in Luke are OT saints?

 

[37818]

Did you mean, in the second case, NT Saints?

No. I meant OT saints twice in my sentence. That the NT promise is originally to OT saints. Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[Revmitchell]

No. I meant OT saints twice in my sentence. That the NT promise is originally to OT saints. Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I see, so what do you believe that new covenant is?