It doesn't unless one uses a flawed hermeneutic.
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The rapture.
- Thread starter 37818
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I would hardly call those equivalent comparisons.
Not so The second coming involves Christ coming to Earth the rapture does not. He sends His angles to gather us and we meet Him in the air.This is before the tribulation and Christ can return at any time there is no sign for His return.
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
The argument I am making, Jesus remains at the right hand of God as mediator until His second appearing (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 9:24, Hebrews 9:12). When He leaves being at the right hand of God whether at a pre trib appearing or in 70 A.D. He would not be once for all at the Holies per Hebrews 9:12 till Hebrews 9:28. And 9:28 would not be a second appearing (Titus 2:13; Matthew 24:30). It would be a third of sorts.
Saccadon
New Member
I'm still sorting through what I believe about the Rapture, but it's clear that the Rapture as taught today wasn't a developed concept until the previous 200 years beginning with the popularization of Premil Dispensationalism by Simon Scofield.
It's possible that the Rapture is indeed in Scripture and simply wasn't thought much about until recently, but I will say I think a lot of the proof texts are incorrectly used. For instance, the whole thing with "One shall be taken, the other left" and "It shall be as the days of Noah" don't explicitly support the Rapture as in the end it was Noah who was left and the wicked who were taken away by the water.
It's possible that the Rapture is indeed in Scripture and simply wasn't thought much about until recently, but I will say I think a lot of the proof texts are incorrectly used. For instance, the whole thing with "One shall be taken, the other left" and "It shall be as the days of Noah" don't explicitly support the Rapture as in the end it was Noah who was left and the wicked who were taken away by the water.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The Rapture happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day
The rapture;
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)
But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)
“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
The rapture;
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)
But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)
“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)
“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I stopped believing in the Rapture years ago, and have understood both passages to support that view. However, I value your opinion, and would like your take on those passages.
Please tell me where in scripture does it say Christ will descend to the earth.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is only one possible conclusion here that Christ descends as far as the clouds because we meet Him in the air.
MB
No it wouldnt
There can be more than one last day i.e. the last day of the week, the last day of the month, the last day of the year, century, millennia, etc...
The last day or trump of what? The rule of satan over the earth?
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
37818
Well-Known Member
Why would Jesus not remain at the right hand of God until His second appearing? (Per Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:24; Hebrews 9:28)
You are wrong. The rapture and the second coming are two different events.
MB
You have a history of using verses that dont say what you claim they say much like the ones quoted here. Also the rapture cannot be counted as a coming since He never steps foot on the ground.
Descend doesn't always mean a complete descent.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
No where in this passage does it say Christ descended to earth. It says He descends from Heaven Verse 17 says we meet Him in the air not on the earth.
I think you are trying to make it say what it clearly does not say. The first event in revelations is in Rev 1:7 this is before the tribulation in the Revelations
The rapture happens before the tribulation. Then Christ can come with all His saints.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
So according to what you believe Christ cannot return with all His saints.
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
Give one example of me using a verse which does not say what I claim it means. Just one.
I just did