The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

[Allan]

I totally disagree....the main sticking points are Atonement, Mans sinful nature & the level of free will allowed by the creator.....the rest is polite conversation.

I didn't say they weren't issue but those are entrenched and comes back to how one understands regeneration/born again. If this is studied out this point, one can ONLY come away holding to one of the two views and the ones you give fall into place.

There are three questions that must be answered:
Most already agree on 'what happens' at regeneration.
But the other two are imperative to understand as well:
When does it happen? and just as importantly... How does it happen?

This understanding is what colors all the above. How do you describe atonement apart from regeneration, or man's nature? The fact is, it is so totally intertwined that you cannot and thus understanding this point is what we determine on how one views the rest, thus it is colored through this lens.

As for stating you will not be a part of a church nor allow (give permission for your children to marry non-reformed).. one must wonder why you see/seek such disfellowship toward them?

Do you see them as just incorrect (so stay away so you don't get caught up in it) or do you see them as not even being Christians. I know of some reformed guys who see it one or the other. The other (not saved) being much less so, but I have found this to be a generally slow growing consensus in those reformed people I speak to or at least a wondering if they are or not since God will lead His people into truth. <-- this is their take, I'm only making the statement on it. - I'm not saying you hold this but it seems to be something I am seeing a bit more than previously but again, slow growing.

 

[SovereignMercy]

For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

 

[Allan]

I agree that it's worth debating. Contending for the truth is never an exercise in futility. It is also worth dividing over.

I agree it is worth debating over

However I see no biblical qualification for dividing over it.

 

[jbh28]

The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree?

Arminians are wrong!!!!!

 

[SovereignMercy]

Now it is Calvinism's turn, please present scripture that teaches a man must be regenerated before he has the ability to believe. I contend that you will be absolutely unable to do this, as no such scripture exists.

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

At this point you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see.

 

[Allan]

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

At this point you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see.

So are you saying that he is unsaved?

It appears you are saying only believers have ears to hear and if he has no ears there is only one logical conclusion.. he is not a believer and thus no saved. I could be wrong on what I read regarding your statement

This is not the claim you are making is it?

 

[MorseOp]

 

[MorseOp]

I do. I consider the opposing doctrine to be serious error. I could not acquiesce to sharing this opposing doctrine in my church. Armianism will never be taught from our pulpit. Likewise many Arminian churches hold the same position. Therefore how could these positions co-exist harmoniously in a church? It is better to separate in such a case.

 

[Skandelon]

The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree?

The irony of it is that if Calvinists are right then Arminians were predestined by God to be Arminians, and if Arminians are right then Calvinists chose against the desire of God to be Calvinists. Either way, us Arminians are in the 'will of God.'

:laugh:

 

[Winman]

[/COLOR][/B]

Well if your asking me to respond, like I said.....I dont personally care how someone thinks they are regenerated (its all of God anyway) ....my main concern is that they truly are in fact saved & are not faking it.

Beyond that, I have many differences with you that have already been noted that are far more concerning than this. Ones I believe to be insurmountable. My solution is ... you go to your church & interact with your own people & I will go to my church & interact with mine. And dont pollute my spiritual gene pool! :laugh: Its straightened out now & its going to stay straight. :godisgood:

I am fine with that, but MorseOp said he thought it was worth discussing, so I presented an opening argument. If you don't want to participate, I am fine with that.

 

[OldRegular]

The irony of it is that if Calvinists are right then Arminians were predestined by God to be Arminians, and if Arminians are right then Calvinists chose against the desire of God to be Calvinists. Either way, us Arminians are in the 'will of God.'

:laugh:

Your understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace is faulty in my opinion. I expect this is true of most Arminians!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do. I consider the opposing doctrine to be serious error. I could not acquiesce to sharing this opposing doctrine in my church. Armianism will never be taught from our pulpit. Likewise many Arminian churches hold the same position. Therefore how could they positions co-exist harmoniously in a church? It is better for to separate in such a case.

What he said.....:thumbs: That includes family.....Ours is a strong Salvation by Grace / Doctrines of Grace belief system. It's both taught in our homes & in our churches....we see it in the gospel & its in the very air we breathe it is in how we see things & how we live our lives. Yes we can surely debate this but it is pointless to change us or to even try. We will hold true to our belief system .......you can have yours for the taking....we will have none of it.

 

[Skandelon]

Your understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace is faulty in my opinion. I expect this is true of most Arminians!

What specifically is 'faulty.' Make your argument? Are you suggesting that if Calvinism is right that we are Arminians by our own libertarian free will?

 

[Winman]

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

At this point you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see.

Not one of these verses says an unregenerate man cannot believe. Saying a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God does not even address faith at all. This verse does not answer whether faith precedes or follows regeneration. You are reading into scripture what it does not say.

John 1:12 refutes you, it says God gives the "power" to "become" a son of God to those who believe and receive Jesus. Verse 13 simply describes this becoming a son of God as being born again by God. We believe, God gives us the supernatural power to be regenerated afterward. This verse refutes Calvinism completely.

There is no verse that says "at this point" you have ears to hear, and eyes to see. That is your invention.

Whoever has an ear to hear is simply someone who is willing to listen and does not resist the Holy Spirit. This verse does not say unregenerate men do not have the ability to hear or believe, again, you insert your own ideas into scripture when they are not there.

Scripture does not say as many as were appointed to "believe", it says as many as were appointed to "eternal life" believed. That is a very different thing. God has determined or appointed that whosoever believes will receive eternal life. There is not one verse of scripture that says God determined or appointed anyone to believe, again you are reading Calvinism into scripture when it is not there.

You are reading your presuppositions into every single one of these verses. Not one of these verses says a man must be regenerated to believe.

The scriptures repeatedly say that no man has life until he believes.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse is simple and straightforward. It says the person that believes has everlasting life (regenerated), and the person who does not believe shall not see life. This verse shows believing is the cause, being regenerated is the effect.

All scripture supports that a person must first believe before they have life and are regenerated. These verses specifically speak about faith and regeneration. I am not reading into scripture as you are.

There is absolutely no scripture that says you must have life to believe. You cannot possibly show it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace is faulty in my opinion. I expect this is true of most Arminians!

OR, this is my findings as well.:smilewinkgrin: But it is not just Arminians. They are at least semi orthodox. Its these other people who scoff at Salvation by Grace believers but feel all confidence in their own making of God that I find hard to swallow.....there, there is really no reaching across the fence....they do their own thing while calling us a cult & worse.

 

[Winman]

OR, this is my findings as well.:smilewinkgrin: But it is not just Arminians. They are at least semi orthodox. Its these other people who scoff at Salvation by Grace believers but feel all confidence in their own making of God that I find hard to swallow.....there, there is really no reaching across the fence....they do their own thing while calling us a cult & worse.

We get it, you believe in the Reformed view and are not open to discussion. So why are you posting, trying to distract? Others wanted to discuss the issue, why don't you allow them? You seem to be attempting to run interference.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We get it, you believe in the Reformed view and are not open to discussion. So why are you posting, trying to distract? Others wanted to discuss the issue, why don't you allow them? You seem to be attempting to run interference.

Its a free country right! I can express my self & they can express themselves as can you. Perhaps they are agreeing with me & so are content with my answers. You got a problem with that? Then take it up with the moderators.

 

[MorseOp]

I was typing on my smart phone earlier, so I couldn't express myself properly.

If a church is orientated to either Calvinism or Arminianism then the opposing view really does not have much of a chance. In fact, it almost always becomes a divisive issue. More harm is done by theological in-fighting then if the church remained as is. Let me give two examples:

In early 1990's the church that planted the church I currently minister at had a group of Calvinists who banded together to try to force their agenda. My former church was staunchly Arminian. This small minority of Calvinists knew this. They had no right to try to divide the church. Instead of doing the honorable thing (leaving peacefully) they sought to divide and conquer. They forced a members meeting in order to push the issue. Thankfully they were defeated and eventually left the church. The result? Calvinism as a whole was seen as a cult by many; just as bad as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. It was very sad.

Around the same time a pastor friend of mine in northern New Jersey had a near mutiny on his hands. The church was solidly Reformed. Two of the elders joined together to revolt against the church's theological position. They won over about a third of the membership. The result was six months of disharmony and ruined relationships. The elders were eventually removed from office. They took most of the rebellious members along with them and joined another church.

Two examples of bad behavior by a minority of people. It would have been better if both groups would have left honorably in order to maintain unity within the body.

Maybe there are churches where Calvinists and Arminians can co-exist. I would not consider them the norm. One of the other positions is going to occupy the pulpit. If the group that holds to the other position can tolerate teaching from the opposing view point, I suppose they could worship together. I could not exist in that environment. I could not abide Arminian theology in any way, shape, or form. I have Arminian friends from bible college days who feel the same about Calvinism. They could not sit under a Calvinist teacher for a minute. If your convictions are that strong is it not better to separate for the sake of the Gospel?

 

[Winman]

Its a free country right! I can express my self & they can express themselves as can you. Perhaps they are agreeing with me & so are content with my answers. You got a problem with that? Then take it up with the moderators.

Sure, you are free to do anything you want. If you want to join the discussion, fine, then present scripture to support your view.

But just saying "I'm not going to discuss anything or change my opinion" is pretty useless, why don't you leave the thread open to those who are interested in presenting and also viewing other's views?

I will look at any Calvinist scripture they want to present as evidence, and I will try to address most of it if I have time.

Look, if Calvinists could show me "convincing" scripture that supports their view, then I would believe it. I have never seen this so far. What I see is a lot of reading into scripture what it does not say.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was typing on my smart phone earlier, so I couldn't express myself properly.

If a church is orientated to either Calvinism or Arminianism then the opposing view really does not have much of a chance. In fact, it almost always becomes a divisive issue. More harm is done by theological in-fighting then if the church remained as is. Let me give two examples:

In early 1990's the church that planted the church I currently minister at had a group of Calvinists who banded together to try to force their agenda. My former church was staunchly Arminian. This small minority of Calvinists knew this. They had no right to try to divide the church. Instead of doing the honorable thing (leaving peacefully) they sought to divide and conquer. They forced a members meeting in order to push the issue. Thankfully they were defeated and eventually left the church. The result? Calvinism as a whole was seen as a cult by many; just as bad as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. It was very sad.

Around the same time a pastor friend of mine in northern New Jersey had a near mutiny on his hands. The church was solidly Reformed. Two of the elders joined together to revolt against the church's theological position. They won over about a third of the membership. The result was six months of disharmony and ruined relationships. The elders were eventually removed from office. They took most of the rebellious members along with them and joined another church.

Two examples of bad behavior by a minority of people. It would have been better if both groups would have left honorably in order to maintain unity within the body.

Maybe there are churches where Calvinists and Arminians can co-exist. I would not consider them the norm. One of the other positions is going to occupy the pulpit. If the group that holds to the other position can tolerate teaching from the opposing view point, I suppose they could worship together. I could not exist in that environment. I could not abide Arminian theology in any way, shape, or form. I have Arminian friends from bible college days who feel the same about Calvinism. They could not sit under a Calvinist teacher for a minute. If your convictions are that strong is it not better to separate for the sake of the Gospel?[/QUOTE]

I will take it a step further....it was not cool to get together in the first place. BTW....Where is this church in NJ (Not Al Martin in Montville?!?)