The scriptural and contextual reading of Lydia's heart

[Silverhair]

Thank you for actually reading Calvin on this. I think you are the only other person on here, after all the comments, that actually looked up what Calvin said. That's the same portion I was reading also. Calvin was certainly not shy about stating that men are such blockheads that if their hearts are not opened they will not truly understand or respond to the gospel. Whether he meant actual regeneration is more of a question though because sometimes he puts faith before and sometimes faith after regeneration.


Yes you do. Maybe he was wrong, but if you follow the logic you use, with the idea that it is somehow more fair you still have the same problems. Was it in any way providential that Lydia heard Paul or random chance? If providential then why didn't others in the town get an equal "chance" to hear. Did God send Paul in that direction as opposed to the East where he had planned or was that chance. If God sent him then what about the folks in the East? Did God love them less? Wasn't it his will that they all be saved too? The fact is none of those things are our concern. The teaching that we are natural "blockheads" is soundly in scripture and any appeals by man to "why God have you done it this way" are always rebuked. So you have to keep those things in mind, Calvinist or not.

Dave you keep saying it was not fair. Where does fair come into Gods plan of salvation. As I have said a number of times God will use whatever means He chooses to bring a person to Himself. God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. That has not changed.

Are men blockheads by times? YES. But what Calvinists overlook is that under that theology man is only a blockhead because God caused them to be blockheads {divine determinism} That is a box that Calvinism cannot escape. The bible on the other hand shows man to be the one responsible for his being a blockhead via his God given free will. Man can and does freely reject the gospel just as man can and does freely accept the gospel and we see this in Lydia's case.

 

[Van]

I cant help if you dont see it in the scripture.

Spot on, if scripture does not say Lydia was regenerated, to claim it is there, but just invisible, is of no help.

What John 6:44-45 teaches is that individuals must be exposed to the gospel in order to be attracted by God's lovingkindness, and those who act on that attraction are the ones who "learned" from the Father. Regeneration is not taught or even implied.

Nothing in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 teaches Lydia could not receive the "spiritual milk" things of the Spirit. Once again, a misreading of one verse is used to support a misreading of another view.

Lydia was in her natural person of flesh state, but able to understand the gospel when presented with clarity, such that her heart was opened.

Scripture uses "opened his eyes, opened his mind, or open her heart" to address where something is explained such that understanding occurs. Consider Numbers 24:16, and the idea that understanding has been achieved, and with understanding comes worship. In 2 Kings 6:15-19, once again we see having eyes opened simply means to understand, and does not suggest regeneration or enablement.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are just twisting the words again. The Jews could hear and understand what Christ Jesus said, they just did not want to accept them and thus were responsible for their rejection of them. Under your view the Jews could not be held responsible for rejecting His words as God had not made it possible for them to understand them.

Do you doubt that Paul preached the word of God to Lydia ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Acts 16 KJV

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

she is what is know as a God fearer in the NT ie she was then converted under the preaching of Paul.

She was ultimately worshipping a God she didn’t fully know until his preaching. She was obviously familiar with the OT, the Law etc but was obviously not converted until this point.

A regenerated person isnt converted until they are brought up under the Gospel. Like Cornelius, he was regenerated, then God sent him the Gospel by Peter

 

[Brightfame52]

Spot on, if scripture does not say Lydia was regenerated, to claim it is there, but just invisible, is of no help.

What John 6:44-45 teaches is that individuals must be exposed to the gospel in order to be attracted by God's lovingkindness, and those who act on that attraction are the ones who "learned" from the Father. Regeneration is not taught or even implied.

Nothing in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 teaches Lydia could not receive the "spiritual milk" things of the Spirit. Once again, a misreading of one verse is used to support a misreading of another view.

Lydia was in her natural person of flesh state, but able to understand the gospel when presented with clarity, such that her heart was opened.

Scripture uses "opened his eyes, opened his mind, or open her heart" to address where something is explained such that understanding occurs. Consider Numbers 24:16, and the idea that understanding has been achieved, and with understanding comes worship. In 2 Kings 6:15-19, once again we see having eyes opened simply means to understand, and does not suggest regeneration or enablement.

Again Lydia was regenerated of God because she was hearing the word of God through Paul. Paul as John knows that people who hear them "spiritually" are of God, born of God 1 Jn 4:6

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

When the word comes, it comes to either a person of God or not of God, if they are of God, meaning born of Him, they hear the messengers of God and believe.

 

[Van]

Again Lydia was regenerated of God because she was hearing the word of God through Paul. Paul as John knows that people who hear them "spiritually" are of God, born of God 1 Jn 4:6

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

When the word comes, it comes to either a person of God or not of God, if they are of God, meaning born of Him, they hear the messengers of God and believe.

Again, you make an assertion, Lydia was regenerated because your belief in total spiritual inability requires it, does not move the ball.

Citing non-germane verses, which use vague and ambiguous phrases, which you do not even attempt to explain, does not move the ball.

1 John 4:6:
We are of God - the idea is that some people claim they are emissaries of God, speaking His truth, but we need to test those claims to validate them.

He that knows God - the idea is that some have actual information from or about God, but others making the same claim do not.

Hears us - better heeds God's emissaries

He who is not of God - those not open to God's message

hears not us - better heeds not the message of God

So how do we know whether to listen? We must listen to ascertain whether the message reflects the consistent message of God, or whether it misrepresents God's message of hope and love..

Is it a bright flame or a dark shadow?

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, you make an assertion, Lydia was regenerated because your belief in total spiritual inability requires it, does not move the ball.

Citing non-germane verses, which use vague and ambiguous phrases, which you do not even attempt to explain, does not move the ball.

1 John 4:6:
We are of God - the idea is that some people claim they are emissaries of God, speaking His truth, but we need to test those claims to validate them.

He that knows God - the idea is that some have actual information from or about God, but others making the same claim do not.

Hears us - better heeds God's emissaries

He who is not of God - those not open to God's message

hears not us - better heeds not the message of God

So how do we know whether to listen? We must listen to ascertain whether the message reflects the consistent message of God, or whether it misrepresents God's message of hope and love..

Is it a bright flame or a dark shadow?

Its a fact, She heard Paul, the hearing is Spiritual. Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

God had already given her a hearing ear to listen

Prov 20:12

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you for actually reading Calvin on this. I think you are the only other person on here, after all the comments, that actually looked up what Calvin said. That's the same portion I was reading also. Calvin was certainly not shy about stating that men are such blockheads that if their hearts are not opened they will not truly understand or respond to the gospel. Whether he meant actual regeneration is more of a question though because sometimes he puts faith before and sometimes faith after regeneration.


Yes you do. Maybe he was wrong, but if you follow the logic you use, with the idea that it is somehow more fair you still have the same problems. Was it in any way providential that Lydia heard Paul or random chance? If providential then why didn't others in the town get an equal "chance" to hear. Did God send Paul in that direction as opposed to the East where he had planned or was that chance. If God sent him then what about the folks in the East? Did God love them less? Wasn't it his will that they all be saved too? The fact is none of those things are our concern. The teaching that we are natural "blockheads" is soundly in scripture and any appeals by man to "why God have you done it this way" are always rebuked. So you have to keep those things in mind, Calvinist or not.

Dave you keep saying it was not fair. Where does fair come into Gods plan of salvation. The question is not whether God is fair but rather whether God is just. As I have said a number of times God will use whatever means He chooses to bring a person to Himself. God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. That has not changed.

Are men blockheads by times? YES. But what Calvinists overlook is that under that theology man is only a blockhead because God caused them to be blockheads {divine determinism} That is a box that Calvinism cannot escape. The bible on the other hand shows man to be the one responsible for his being a blockhead via his God given free will. Man can and does freely reject the gospel just as man can and does freely accept the gospel and we see this in Lydia's case.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you doubt that Paul preached the word of God to Lydia ?

That's a rather silly question BF. Of course he did. Have you not read any of my posts? The real question is do you not believe the bible?

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Lydia head the gospel message being preached by Paul.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Is that not exactly what Lydia did
Act 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Lydia who already worshiped God heard the gospel message and God convicted her and she believed what she had heard regarding Christ Jesus.

 

[Van]

Its a fact, She heard Paul, the hearing is Spiritual. Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

God had already given her a hearing ear to listen

Prov 20:12

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How many verses can you cite that say Lydia was regenerated? Answer none.
So you claim a verse that says one thing actually means another. Incredible.

 

[Van]

Scripture = faith comes from hearing
Brightflame = faith comes from having people being instilled with God's faith via irresistible grace.

 

[Silverhair]

Again Lydia was regenerated of God because she was hearing the word of God through Paul. Paul as John knows that people who hear them "spiritually" are of God, born of God 1 Jn 4:6

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

When the word comes, it comes to either a person of God or not of God, if they are of God, meaning born of Him, they hear the messengers of God and believe.

BF the context {1 John 4:1-6} does not support how you are using 1John 4:6. John is writing to believers and warning them to not trust all who call themselves prophets but rather to test what they say. He reminds them that they are saved and so the indwelling Spirit is their strength. {1 John 4:4}
John is just saying that those that are already saved will trust what he is saying but those that are not saved will trust what the false prophets are saying.

Example those that are saved would listen to the late Dr. C. Stanley those that are not saved would listen to Joel Osteen.

 

[Van]

Its a fact, She heard Paul, the hearing is Spiritual. Acts 16:14

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

God had already given her a hearing ear to listen

Prov 20:12

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is being able to hear Paul at issue? Nope
Did Lydia need to be given an ear? Nope
Once false claim is never actually supported with another false claim.
How do individuals "overcome?" God puts them spiritually into Christ, and He overcomes. Really simple

 

[Brightfame52]

Also no doubt the heart of lydia which the Lord opened, was a Heart given in the New Birth Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Its the New Heart that is made receptive to Spiritual truth

 

[Van]

Also no doubt the heart of lydia which the Lord opened, was a Heart given in the New Birth Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Its the New Heart that is made receptive to Spiritual truth

You seem to primarily bounce from one non-germane verse to another always implying but never stating support for the fiction of total spiritual inability.

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

That's a rather silly question BF.

No its not lest you are calling yourself silly. Paul preached to her the word of God, and in order to hear it Spiritually you must be of God, or you cannot hear it spiritually. John 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now Lydia heard the words of God sent to her by the preacher Paul

 

[Brightfame52]

How many verses can you cite that say Lydia was regenerated? Answer none.
So you claim a verse that says one thing actually means another. Incredible.

I dont need one that says that, Im able to match scripture with scripture and see the Truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF the context {1 John 4:1-6} does not support how you are using 1John 4:6. John is writing to believers and warning them to not trust all who call themselves prophets but rather to test what they say. He reminds them that they are saved and so the indwelling Spirit is their strength. {1 John 4:4}
John is just saying that those that are already saved will trust what he is saying but those that are not saved will trust what the false prophets are saying.

Example those that are saved would listen to the late Dr. C. Stanley those that are not saved would listen to Joel Osteen.

It does support it, it plainly says those who hear the preachers of the word, spiritual hearing is intended, knows God, if they dont hear Gods preachers, they are not of God. 1 Jn 4:6

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Brightfame52]

Is being able to hear Paul at issue? Nope
Did Lydia need to be given an ear? Nope
Once false claim is never actually supported with another false claim.
How do individuals "overcome?" God puts them spiritually into Christ, and He overcomes. Really simple

I dont know what you talking about. Lydia was able to hear the word of God, faith comes by hearing, She was given the ability to hear. Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF the context {1 John 4:1-6} does not support how you are using 1John 4:6. John is writing to believers and warning them to not trust all who call themselves prophets but rather to test what they say. He reminds them that they are saved and so the indwelling Spirit is their strength. {1 John 4:4}
John is just saying that those that are already saved will trust what he is saying but those that are not saved will trust what the false prophets are saying.

Example those that are saved would listen to the late Dr. C. Stanley those that are not saved would listen to Joel Osteen.

You seem to primarily bounce from one non-germane verse to another always implying but never stating support for the fiction of total spiritual inability.

Man needs a spiritual heart to receive Spiritual things. God gives one that heart in regeneration, then one is spiritually prepared to receive the word and understand it Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.