The Shroud of Turin

[BillySunday1935]

Good luck with that.

Look - I'm not trying to obfuscate here, but the information is one mouse click away. DHK posted it in defense of his claims, so I would think that you would wish to go to the source. I'm not inclined to recreate the wheel here.

I said that I stand by my postings, so if you want to know what I believe then go to the posts in question.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1539126&postcount=110


http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536800&postcount=202


http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536889&postcount=208


http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536372&postcount=145

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536402&postcount=150

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536452&postcount=152

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1536509&postcount=158

Thanks DHK.

 

[annsni]

Well, he's posted the link. If you want to see what I believe, then just go to the relevant link. Is that to much trouble?

How hard is it for you to answer a question asked of you directly? You DO understand the question, do you not? I have no desire to look elsewhere - I'm asking you once again: Do you believe you need to be baptized to be saved? It's a basic "yes" or "no" question.

 

[BillySunday1935]

How hard is it for you to answer a question asked of you directly? You DO understand the question, do you not? I have no desire to look elsewhere - I'm asking you once again: Do you believe you need to be baptized to be saved? It's a basic "yes" or "no" question.

I've already answered it - that's the point. DHK has posted the links twice now. If you want to know, then overcome your intellectual inertia and FOLLOW THE LINKS. I'm not going to rehash the same stuff that I've already posted as I have better things to do with my time. Do your own homework.

 

[annsni]

I've already answered it - that's the point. DHK has posted the links twice now. If you want to know, then overcome your intellectual inertia and FOLLOW THE LINKS. I'm not going to rehash the same stuff that I've already posted as I have better things to do with my time. Do your own homework.

Wow. A simple yes or no and you cannot answer that. I'm not going looking through links when you could say "yes" or "no".

Well, I see there is no reason to speak to you then. You are lazy, dishonest and with your beliefs, far from a Baptist at all. So I'd add deceptive into that too.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Wow. A simple yes or no and you cannot answer that. I'm not going looking through links when you could say "yes" or "no".

Well, I see there is no reason to speak to you then. You are lazy, dishonest and with your beliefs, far from a Baptist at all. So I'd add deceptive into that too.

Oh please...the moderator of the forum posted the links. If you don't have the time to go through what I've already posted then, well... that's your problem. Without even looking at my stated position, you are accusing me of being lazy, dishonest with my beliefs, far from a Baptist, and deceptive. Perhaps you should ask Jesus if he's good with your attitude.

Peace!

 

[ccrobinson]

Not sure what's so hard about posting "Yes" or "No" in answer to a question.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Not sure what's so hard about posting "Yes" or "No" in answer to a question.

What is it with you people... do you have no intellectual motivation? I've already posted my beliefs for all to see and DHK (the moderator) has posted and re-posted the relative links to those ideas.

Look - if you don't have the time to go and investigate the answers to that which you ask, then you don't deserve an answer. Get off of your lazy rear-ends and read for yourself.

Peace!

 

[DHK]

What is it with you people... do you have no intellectual motivation? I've already posted my beliefs for all to see and DHK (the moderator) has posted and re-posted the relative links to those ideas.

Look - if you don't have the time to go and investigate the answers to that which you ask, then you don't deserve an answer. Get off of your lazy rear-ends and read for yourself.

Peace!

No need for the personal attacks Billy.
Sometimes all that a person wants is an affirmation.
Is this indeed true? They want to re-affirm what has been said to make sure that they are hearing what has been said, and that what has been said has not been taken out of context. Thus a simple yes or no answer would really clear things up in their minds.

 

[BillySunday1935]

No need for the personal attacks Billy.
Sometimes all that a person wants is an affirmation.
Is this indeed true? They want to re-affirm what has been said to make sure that they are hearing what has been said, and that what has been said has not been taken out of context. Thus a simple yes or no answer would really clear things up in their minds.

This is not a personal attack. To be honest, I don't think that mollycoddling people is in my best interest. If they cannot take the few minutes that are required to investigate my answers to their questions - especially when those answers have been handed to them by both you and I - then I have little sympathy for their "so called" dilemma. No one has spoon fed me so, I feel no need to spoon feed others.

Peace!

 

[annsni]

This is not a personal attack. To be honest, I don't think that mollycoddling people is in my best interest. If they cannot take the few minutes that are required to investigate my answers to their questions - especially when those answers have been handed to them by both you and I - then I have little sympathy for their "so called" dilemma. No one has spoon fed me so, I feel no need to spoon feed others.

Peace!

You responded in 8 posts .... that you refuse to answer "yes" or "no". Mollycoddling? I asked a question - you refuse to answer. I have to highly question your refusing to stand up for your beliefs. Maybe you're embarrassed by them? Maybe you don't fully believe them? I'm not sure what's going on but you sound like a child who is afraid to answer for fear of the repercussions.

 

[Peggy]

Did this thread get off topic or what!

 

[BillySunday1935]

You responded in 8 posts .... that you refuse to answer "yes" or "no". Mollycoddling? I asked a question - you refuse to answer. I have to highly question your refusing to stand up for your beliefs. Maybe you're embarrassed by them? Maybe you don't fully believe them? I'm not sure what's going on but you sound like a child who is afraid to answer for fear of the repercussions.

Now you are simply attempting to goad me. Oh my lordy...

Ok - since you don't want to spend the time to follow the links provided, I'll post it again - just for you. Happy now?

Originally Posted by DHK
snip...There is no hope for a person who is pinning the hope of their salvation on the belief that the new birth is baptism.

You must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven.
It doesn't say you must be baptized as the Catholic Church teaches, and thus send people to hell.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935

Yes - one must be born again of water and the spirit which, if I have a correct understanding of Catholic dotrine here, is precisely what they teach.

I must respectfully disagree with your statements here as they are not supported by scripture -- at least if one takes scripture in its totallity.

Ezekiel: 36 25-27:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of Baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing us for what he gives us in the new covenant.

And now, let’s move on to the New Testament to see the correlation.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

1 Peter 3: 20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Look at Jesus’ own word in John’s gospel…

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Water and the spirit. Hmmm.... Let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after Jesus finished his talk with Nicodemus…

John 3:22
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)... the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

God Bless!

 

[annsni]

Now you are simply attempting to goad me. Oh my lordy...

Ok - since you don't want to spend the time to follow the links provided, I'll post it again - just for you. Happy now?

So your answer is "Yes, I believe that one must be baptized to be saved." Correct?

 

[DHK]

To summarize Billy's beliefs

I must respectfully disagree with your statements here as they are not supported by scripture -- at least if one takes scripture in its totallity.

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches?

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific!

They couldn't be any clearer.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So your answer is "Yes, I believe that one must be baptized to be saved." Correct?

it takes more than just baptism...Those who heard Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. Peter answered, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Salvation begins with these three "steps":
1) repent,
2) be baptized, and
3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ.

To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ.

And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be conformed to God's image.

Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is "faith working through love." It is an ongoing, lifelong process. Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we must also be being saved by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future tense, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

it takes more than just baptism...Those who heard Peter's sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. Peter answered, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Salvation begins with these three "steps":
1) repent,
2) be baptized, and
3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ.

Catholics don't have a clue about the Biblical meaning of repentance, so this turns out to be reformation. The Bible demands regeneration, not reformation.

To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ.

This statement is absolutely false and causes more people to enter into hell than any other teaching.

And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be conformed to God's image.

It is doubtful that there is a soul in the RCC who knows anything about receiving the Holy Spirit. They don't know the meaning of the new birth. How could they know about receiving the Holy Spirit? Impossible!

 

[Loveday]

Wow. I've been away for a week or two, and I just clicked on to this thread because I saw the program a few weeks ago about the Shroud of Turin and wanted to see what everyone here had to say about it. I certainly didn't expect to see the thread turn out this way! I have no idea what to think about the shroud, to be honest. It's certainly an intriguing mystery, but it's just an object, so I wouldn't look at it as anything more than that even if it was proven beyond a doubt to be the actual burial cloth of Christ.

I'm a Methodist, as it states in my profile, more by upbringing than by having studied all the beliefs of the Methodist church and then choosing it deliberately. So I'm not totally conversant with every single Methodist doctrine and belief. And I'm certainly not an expert on Baptist beliefs--that's why I'm here, actually, to learn more (I've been looking around for a good Methodist board to join, too, so I can learn more about my own denomination--it's embarrassing to admit I'm so ignorant!). While reading through this thread, and thinking back to other posts on other threads that I've read in the past, I've gotten a little confused. I always thought that baptism was very important for Baptists--after all, y'all are called Baptists, right? But from what I've been reading, it almost seems as if baptism is just an afterthought, it's totally unimportant. I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding this--PLEASE don't think I'm just asking this to be facetious, because I'm not, but--why are Baptists called Baptists? I really need to have my confusion cleared up here!

 

[Peggy]

What would DHK have to complain about if he couldn't complain about the RCC?

hahahahahaha!

 

[DHK]

I always thought that baptism was very important for Baptists--after all, y'all are called Baptists, right? But from what I've been reading, it almost seems as if baptism is just an afterthought, it's totally unimportant. I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding this--PLEASE don't think I'm just asking this to be facetious, because I'm not, but--why are Baptists called Baptists? I really need to have my confusion cleared up here!

Baptism is very important to Baptists, but not as important as Christ, or as his atoning work. To put baptism on the same level as the work of Christ is blasphemous, yet that is what both the RCC and Billy here is doing. When Jesus died on the cross he said "It is finished," meaning the work of Christ is finished. He paid it all. There is nothing more to do. The price of our sins was paid on the cross by Christ. The RCC believes that the blood of Christ was not sufficient. They believe it is the blood plus baptism that they must put their faith in order to be saved. We believe it is blasphemous to take away from the sacrificial work of Christ. Didn't he suffer enough for our sins? Wasn't the price he paid steep enough.

It is important. That is why he required us to be baptized after we become saved, or put our trust in Christ, not before, not as an infant, not as a part of salvation, but after one puts their trust in Christ.
I hope that helps your understanding.