The Shroud of Turin

[annsni]

Wow. I've been away for a week or two, and I just clicked on to this thread because I saw the program a few weeks ago about the Shroud of Turin and wanted to see what everyone here had to say about it. I certainly didn't expect to see the thread turn out this way! I have no idea what to think about the shroud, to be honest. It's certainly an intriguing mystery, but it's just an object, so I wouldn't look at it as anything more than that even if it was proven beyond a doubt to be the actual burial cloth of Christ.

I'm a Methodist, as it states in my profile, more by upbringing than by having studied all the beliefs of the Methodist church and then choosing it deliberately. So I'm not totally conversant with every single Methodist doctrine and belief. And I'm certainly not an expert on Baptist beliefs--that's why I'm here, actually, to learn more (I've been looking around for a good Methodist board to join, too, so I can learn more about my own denomination--it's embarrassing to admit I'm so ignorant!). While reading through this thread, and thinking back to other posts on other threads that I've read in the past, I've gotten a little confused. I always thought that baptism was very important for Baptists--after all, y'all are called Baptists, right? But from what I've been reading, it almost seems as if baptism is just an afterthought, it's totally unimportant. I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding this--PLEASE don't think I'm just asking this to be facetious, because I'm not, but--why are Baptists called Baptists? I really need to have my confusion cleared up here!

Baptists feel that baptism is important because Christ commanded it but in reading Scripture, we can see that one is indwelt with the Holy Spirit before baptism and as such, it is not baptism that saves us. But it is a sign of our new life in Christ and since Christ commanded it, every believer must be willing to follow that command and be baptized. If one refused to be baptized, I'd seriously question whether they are truly saved because the Holy Spirit will testify to the importance of baptism as well. But to say baptism saves, well, it's just not Scriptural.

 

[BillySunday1935]

To summarize Billy's beliefs

They couldn't be any clearer.

Thanks DHK!

 

[Loveday]

Baptism is very important to Baptists, but not as important as Christ, or as his atoning work. To put baptism on the same level as the work of Christ is blasphemous, yet that is what both the RCC and Billy here is doing. When Jesus died on the cross he said "It is finished," meaning the work of Christ is finished. He paid it all. There is nothing more to do. The price of our sins was paid on the cross by Christ. The RCC believes that the blood of Christ was not sufficient. They believe it is the blood plus baptism that they must put their faith in order to be saved. We believe it is blasphemous to take away from the sacrificial work of Christ. Didn't he suffer enough for our sins? Wasn't the price he paid steep enough.

It is important. That is why he required us to be baptized after we become saved, or put our trust in Christ, not before, not as an infant, not as a part of salvation, but after one puts their trust in Christ.
I hope that helps your understanding.

Baptists feel that baptism is important because Christ commanded it but in reading Scripture, we can see that one is indwelt with the Holy Spirit before baptism and as such, it is not baptism that saves us. But it is a sign of our new life in Christ and since Christ commanded it, every believer must be willing to follow that command and be baptized. If one refused to be baptized, I'd seriously question whether they are truly saved because the Holy Spirit will testify to the importance of baptism as well. But to say baptism saves, well, it's just not Scriptural.

Thank you both. You cleared it up for me very well.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Baptism...It is important. That is why he required us to be baptized after we become saved, or put our trust in Christ, not before, not as an infant, not as a part of salvation, but after one puts their trust in Christ.

So Baptism is "important" and Christ "requires" baptistm...so what happens if we ignore this "requirement"?

A drivers license is "required" to operate a motor vehicle, if you're caught without the "required" license, you get fined and if its habitual, you get your driving privileges suspended...

In XC
-

 

[Peggy]

I still think the Shroud of Turin is genuine. Just thought I'd throw that in since that was the topic of the original thread.

 

[lori4dogs]

I still think the Shroud of Turin is genuine. Just thought I'd throw that in since that was the topic of the original thread.

The shroud is currently on display for the first time since 2002. There is an expectation of around 2 million visitors during the exhibition. I think it can be an excellent tool for people to learn the facts about Christ's death and resurrection whether or not it is authentic.

 

[annsni]

Lori - Welcome back. How did you do with your surgery?

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori - Welcome back. How did you do with your surgery?

Thanks, Ann. It went well. I'm kinda washed out though. I sure appreciate the prayers.

 

[annsni]

Thanks, Ann. It went well. I'm kinda washed out though. I sure appreciate the prayers.

I've had lots of different procedures and stuff and I find just the sedation/anesthesia will make me SOOOOO tired for days. Make sure you rest so you can heal well. No matter what you had done, surgery is invasive on our body and our bodies will fight it. So take it easy.

 

[Trotter]

So Baptism is "important" and Christ "requires" baptistm...so what happens if we ignore this "requirement"?

A drivers license is "required" to operate a motor vehicle, if you're caught without the "required" license, you get fined and if its habitual, you get your driving privileges suspended...

In XC
-

Then you would be disobedient but still saved. Baptism is an outward show of the inward change; the death of the old man, burial in the water, and raised anew in Christ. It has no effect on salvation. Baptism is to occur after salvation only... otherwise you just get a wet sinner.

Baptists were originally known as Anabaptists, or "re-baptizers", as they refused to honor the sprinkling of the RCC or baptisms of other denominations. That still holds true today as every Baptist church I know will not accept the baptism done by a non-Baptist church as a means of joining the church (most churches accept members by letter from a sister church, by baptism, or by statement of faith that includes previous baptism).

 

[quantumfaith]

Then you would be disobedient but still saved. Baptism is an outward show of the inward change; the death of the old man, burial in the water, and raised anew in Christ. It has no effect on salvation. Baptism is to occur after salvation only... otherwise you just get a wet sinner.

Trotter, while I do agree with you in principle and interpretation with regards to baptism, I also intellectually comprehend the ambiguities that many believers in the family of Christianity see differently as to the role of baptism. Here is a simplisitc link discussing such issues.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bap_bibl.htm

 

[BillySunday1935]

Then you would be disobedient but still saved. Baptism is an outward show of the inward change; the death of the old man, burial in the water, and raised anew in Christ. It has no effect on salvation. Baptism is to occur after salvation only... otherwise you just get a wet sinner.

Baptists were originally known as Anabaptists, or "re-baptizers", as they refused to honor the sprinkling of the RCC or baptisms of other denominations. That still holds true today as every Baptist church I know will not accept the baptism done by a non-Baptist church as a means of joining the church (most churches accept members by letter from a sister church, by baptism, or by statement of faith that includes previous baptism).

Well, it is my understanding that even Catholics accept baptism by any church that uses the Trinitarian formula.

Hey - I thought that the early Baptists were called "dunkers"?

Peace!

 

[BobRyan]

Catholics do not allow Christians of other denominations who have been baptized to participate in the RCC communion service (unless they are eastern orthodox etc) - and they do not allow their own people to in the communion service of those othe denominations.

So when you say "recognize the baptism" of other Christians - what in the world are you talking about?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Baptists were originally known as Anabaptists, or "re-baptizers", as they refused to honor the sprinkling of the RCC or baptisms of other denominations. That still holds true today as every Baptist church I know will not accept the baptism done by a non-Baptist church as a means of joining the church (most churches accept members by letter from a sister church, by baptism, or by statement of faith that includes previous baptism).

The question is - do Baptist churches allow for believer's baptism in non-Baptist churches - such that a non-Baptist who chooses to join the Baptist church does not have to get re-baptized to join, as long as they had already participated in believers full water immersion baptism in their former church.

I thought the answer to that was "yes" - they accept full water baptism of believers in other denominations.

Did I miss something?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Catholics do not allow Christians of other denominations who have been baptized to participate in the RCC communion service (unless they are eastern orthodox etc) - and they do not allow their own people to in the communion service of those othe denominations.

So when you say "recognize the baptism" of other Christians - what in the world are you talking about?

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob, I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and I could not receive the Eucharist from a RCC...and neither could a RC receive the Eucharist from EOC...we're not in communion with each other...

Before I became Orthodox, I was Baptist...My baptism was with water and in the Trinitarian Formula (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)...therefore, my Baptism was "recognized" and thus I didn't have to be re-baptized...

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The question is - do Baptist churches allow for believer's baptism in non-Baptist churches - such that a non-Baptist who chooses to join the Baptist church does not have to get re-baptized to join, as long as they had already participated in believers full water immersion baptism in their former church.

I thought the answer to that was "yes" - they accept full water baptism of believers in other denominations.

Did I miss something?

in Christ,

Bob

YES...Even though I was raised a Baptist and saved as a Baptist, I didn't get baptized until I was 26...I joined the US Navy and after four years of service I got out and met my wife...she was Methodist and we got married in her Church...before we got married I was Baptized by a Methodist minister...since they normally "sprinkle"...I requested to be immersed...so we went to a Baptist Church and the Methodist minister baptized me...

Shortly after I got married we moved to Indiana and we joined a Baptist Church...they recognized my baptism...since I was immersed and done so in the Trinitarian formula...

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

Catholics do not allow Christians of other denominations who have been baptized to participate in the RCC communion service (unless they are eastern orthodox etc) - and they do not allow their own people to in the communion service of those othe denominations.

So when you say "recognize the baptism" of other Christians - what in the world are you talking about?

in Christ,

Bob

The following has been commonly published in 'missalettes' throughout the United States as directed by U.S. bishops:

"We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us ‘that they may all be one’ (John 17:21).

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . "

As an Anglican, I requested and was given permission to receive communion in a Catholic Church because I was visiting relatives in an area that had no Anglican Church.

You say 'other Christians are not allowed to participate in the RCC communion service'. A more accurate statement would be that 'other Christians are encouraged to join in worship but are asked not to receive holy communion unless they have requested and been granted permission according to canon law. The baptisms of other Christian churches (not Mormon or Jehovah's Witness) are recognized.

 

[quantumfaith]

Just watched the NatGeo program on the Shroud. Interesting program, personally I rather liked the idea that the shroud was an icon used in the Eastern Church. After surfacing in the west (France), the west not having the iconic traditions of the eastern church, then attaching the status of a "relic" to the shroud. The mystery continues.....

 

[DHK]

So Baptism is "important" and Christ "requires" baptistm...so what happens if we ignore this "requirement"?

A drivers license is "required" to operate a motor vehicle, if you're caught without the "required" license, you get fined and if its habitual, you get your driving privileges suspended...

In XC
-

No analogy here. Christ does not require baptism for salvation. In fact he doesn't require it at all. The thief on the cross went to heaven without baptism. It wasn't a requirement. It is a step of obedience after salvation. And so is a life of prayer, fellowship with other believers, being a faithful witness to the lost, regular church attendance, and many other things. Baptism is not the only command that Christ commanded. The Christian life is full of commands from Christ, that every believer ought to obey with joy--the disobedience of any one of them does not take away one's salvation, only the joy of their salvation.

Baptism is not the license. It is not a requirement. There is no analogy.

 

[DHK]

Well, it is my understanding that even Catholics accept baptism by any church that uses the Trinitarian formula.

Hey - I thought that the early Baptists were called "dunkers"?

Peace!

Early Baptists were called dunkers. That refers to the method of Baptism--immersion. They still baptized after one put their faith in Christ, and never before.
The teaching of baptism by the RCC is nothing short of heresy--Trinitarian formula or not. Baptismal regeneration is not taught in the Bible.