The Sovereign will of God

[atpollard]

so God is a respecter of persons?

if there are two people. both deserving of hell. and God grants one person forgiveness by changing his heart from unbelief to belief. but does not give the other person a chance to even consider it?

sorry bro. Thats not the god of the bible.

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; this is what the LORD of armies says: “They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.” And your eyes will see this, and you will say, “The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!” [Malachi 1:2-5] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. [John 6:43-45] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” [John 10:25-30] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." [Romans 9:18] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

but does not give the other person a chance to even consider it?

God gives EVERYONE (with the possible exception of Esau ) a chance to consider it.
Everyone freely chooses to reject God's offer.

• And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
• He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
• And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

- from the GOSPEL

 

[atpollard]

the saved are better because God chose you and did not chose someone else.

Only Pelagians think they are better. No Calvinist claims God chose us because we deserved it. You, however, do claim that the difference between a saint and a sinner is that the Saint chose better and the sinner chose worse ... so the credit/blame for salvation/damnation rests with US.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Calvinists both disagree with you.

You may not think it means much, But its like a father has 10 kids, and even though non of his children deserve anything from him (they all rebelled against him, they all turned on him, they all slandered and lived their life doing everything he did not want them to do. out of the blue he chooses to give 5 of these damned kids everything he has, and burns the rest alive in fire.

Ummm ... the Bible says that all men are sinners and that all sinners deserve punishment. So the first sentence is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. The Bible also says that God chose some to be saved and that not all will be saved ... so other than the fact that it is closer to 4 saved and 6 burnt in your story (many vs few), the second part also reflects reality. It is only YOUR speculation on God's motives that are questionable. The rest of the story is biblical fact: all are sinners; some are saved; most are damned.

Then he claims he is a father of love.
No one is buying it..

Now we get to the heart of the matter ... you object that God is unfair.
I agree. God is "unfair". A Just God would damn all, starting with crushing Adam like a bug for daring to defy GOD ALMIGHTY!
Instead, a loving God chose to save too many to count ... none of whom deserved it ... just because it pleased His sense of love.
The Body of Christ has been purchased into it with the blood of God Incarnate.

Now THAT is a humbling reality (and it is found in the Bible).

 

[atpollard]

NO ONE teaches this. (not even arminians)

so who are you against??

Some flavors of "Free will" deny it, but carry it as a necessary conclusion.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt: Where does fallen man get the power to choose to believe "foolishness"?
Prevenient grace?
Semi-Pelagianism (people retain some good - denial of "original sin")?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are the descendants of Abraham. We are the children of the Promise.

You have been teaching Pelagianism. It is in your own words and no one else's.

You were never promised land

You were never promised the things Israel was promised

What you teach is replacement theology. If your gonna put a name to it and not discuss the word. Back at you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have heard others argue that it is a work.
Some make a flawed argument.
Others imply something subtler ... anything (other than God) REQUIRED for salvation steals some of the "glory" from God. It is in that sense that they accuse man-made faith as a prerequisite for divine salvation as being a "work". It is a bit sloppy of rhetoric, but I understand their point. They are accusing you of crediting man with part of the work of God (since they view salvation as 100% the work of God).

The problem is. No one thinks a persons faith come from self. or crediting self with their own faith. This makes no sense whatsoever.

So when they do this,

1. They are falsley accusing others
2. They are showing they can not understand what the other believes
3. They have stopped the ability to have a normal conversation, Its becomes a "he says she says" drag out fight.,.

which sadly, in my years of being involved in christian chats. this is what ends up happening..

Personally, I just think that you have the cart before the horse. For me "salvation" unfolded something like this:

1. I became aware of God
2. I became aware of my need to repent of my sin
3. God forgave me of my sin.
4. My eyes were opened to the hand of God drawing me to #1 and #2 when I thought that I was the clever one.

So God chose me before I chose God ... I was just not aware of it at the time.
(I cannot speak to anyone else's experience ... I am only an expert on my own.)

So I don't hate "synergysm", I just cannot affirm it.

I am going to be honest, this makes no sense to me,.

You knew it, But you did not know it

and you thought you came aware of it of your own clever devises.

I have never known anyone who thought they came up with this on their own.. Everyone I knoe Gave God the credit. even some people who ultimately chose not to say yes to God (because they did not want to give up their sin) The acknowledged God was calling them, and they needed to repent, and could not save themselves. and even acknowledged Christ came to die for them.

But they saw their sin as moire valuable

 

[kyredneck]

I don't hate "synergysm"

That's typical, by far the majority of Monergists lack the animosity the Synergists have toward them. Many of these deranged Synergists join forums and become self-appointed 'Calvinist-slayers'. The BB has more than their share of them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Only Pelagians think they are better.

Please. lets get off all the name calling..it does not help in our conversation

No Calvinist claims God chose us because we deserved it.

Most workers deny they are trying to work to earn salvation. Whether a calvinists believes it or not. It does not matter, the fact is, God chose you over someone else. So in effect. God respected you and saved you, as better than the person he did not chose.

You, however, do claim that the difference between a saint and a sinner is that the Saint chose better and the sinner chose worse ... so the credit/blame for salvation/damnation rests with US.

I disagree

A sinner chose to remain in unbelief

the saint chose to believe

He who BELIEVES is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

That is what seperates the two

Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Calvinists both disagree with you.


Ummm ... the Bible says that all men are sinners and that all sinners deserve punishment. So the first sentence is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. The Bible also says that God chose some to be saved and that not all will be saved ... so other than the fact that it is closer to 4 saved and 6 burnt in your story (many vs few), the second part also reflects reality. It is only YOUR speculation on God's motives that are questionable. The rest of the story is biblical fact: all are sinners; some are saved; most are damned.

this may work except for the fact as paul says we are saved BY GRACE, but THROUGH FAITH.

John says it is those who RECIEVED HIM, that were given the right to be children of God.

God is not going to force a gift on those who decide they do not want it.

And he will welcome with open arms those who chose to repent and trust him based on what he has done..

Its all of God. I can't take credit for being saved through faith UNLESS I do something to earn it..(baptism, works, obedience etc)

Now we get to the heart of the matter ... you object that God is unfair.

Nope. Your God is unfair. Not God..I reject your God

I agree. God is "unfair". A Just God would damn all, starting with crushing Adam like a bug for daring to defy GOD ALMIGHTY!
Instead, a loving God chose to save too many to count ... none of whom deserved it ... just because it pleased His sense of love.
The Body of Christ has been purchased into it with the blood of God Incarnate.

Now THAT is a humbling reality (and it is found in the Bible).

Your right, A just God would condemn all Thats fair!

A loving God would love all and provide a way to satisfy his justice so he did not have to condemn all. Thats fair

A loving god also would not force anyone to take his provision. But offer it to them, while offering them the ability to say no thank you. Thats fair.

But if he claims to be loving, yet only provides a way for some and does not even give the rest a chance. They his claim to be a loving God is false.. Thats not fair, and is deceptive

My God is a fair God.. He is just and loving as he claims to be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Some flavors of "Free will" deny it, but carry it as a necessary conclusion.

show me

Giving you the benefit of the doubt: Where does fallen man get the power to choose to believe "foolishness"?
Prevenient grace?
Semi-Pelagianism (people retain some good - denial of "original sin")?

John 3 says it well

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is the work of God we believe in him,, But we still have to chose to believe,

Then and ONLY then, can God be proven to be a just and loving God. because on judgment day, they are condmened not for sin, but because of therr lack of faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's typical, by far the majority of Monergists lack the animosity the Synergists have toward them. Many of these deranged Synergists join forums and become self-appointed 'Calvinist-slayers'. The BB has more than their share of them.

once again,

can we stop with the name calling, Most people have no idea what these terms mean, nore do they care.

lets talk about the word. Not what these so called groups of people believe. 90% of the conversationsd I have witnessed or been a part of where people try to push people into one of these groups. the one accusing is so far off base they can't even see it, And they are toi set in their minds they are correct. to actually listen the person they are accusing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; this is what the LORD of armies says: “They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.” And your eyes will see this, and you will say, “The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!” [Malachi 1:2-5] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. [John 6:43-45] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” [John 10:25-30] ... Is this the God of the Bible?

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." [Romans 9:18] ... Is this the God of the Bible?



God gives EVERYONE (with the possible exception of Esau ) a chance to consider it.
Everyone freely chooses to reject God's offer.

• And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
• He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
• And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

- from the GOSPEL

lol. Look up where God said he loved one and hated another

It is about the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom. Not about 2 kids who were not even born yet.

As I tried to tell your coworker. Rom 9 is not about anyones salvation. Its about God chosing the nation of Israel.

 

[kyredneck]

I have witnessed or been a part of where people try to push people into one of these groups.

Any Baptist will fit into one of these groups:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

 

[atpollard]

Please. lets get off all the name calling..it does not help in our conversation

I was not name calling.
Pelagianism is the belief (held by almost no one) that we do not inherit "original sin", so babies are born sinless and everyone has the same choice as Adam to either live a sinless life or to choose to sin. So a true "Pelagian" believes that they can live without sin under their own power ... thus they CAN earn salvation. It is a "pull yourself up by your boot straps" version of Christianity.

It is thrown around as an insult far too often, but I was using it in the technical sense.

 

[atpollard]

I disagree

A sinner chose to remain in unbelief

the saint chose to believe

He who BELIEVES is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

That is what separates the two

Umm ...

• "A sinner chose to remain in unbelief" ... the blame for the choice goes to the sinner, right?
  • (If not, then please explain why not)
• "the saint chose to believe" ... the credit for the choice goes to the saint who made the choice, right?
  • (If not, then please explain why not)
• I said: "the difference between a saint and a sinner is that the Saint chose better and the sinner chose worse" ... How is what you said NOT what I said, you say?
  • (Is choosing to believe better than choosing to remain in unbelief?)
  • (Is choosing to remain in unbelief worse than choosing to believe?)
  • (Does the credit/blame not go to the person that made the choice?)

 

[AustinC]

You were never promised land

You were never promised the things Israel was promised

What you teach is replacement theology. If your gonna put a name to it and not discuss the word. Back at you.

Yes, I am promised the land. I will live on earth with my King for eternity. I will not be burned up on the Day of the Lord. The Abrahamic Covenant applies to me and all who believe in the atoning work of Christ Jesus. In the covenant with Abraham, God promises to all the people of the world who, by faith, believe as Abraham believed.

If you understood the Covenants you would see that there is no such thing as replacement. There is only union in the Abrahamic Covenant.
You don't seem to grasp that the Mosaic Covenant ended at the cross. The nation of Israel has no land covenant with God. Only the people who are chosen within the New Covenant and in the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant will receive any land.

You, of course, reject this truth and hold to a failed system of dispensationalism that messes you up.

 

[atpollard]

lol. Look up where God said he loved one and hated another

It is about the nation of Israel and the nation of Edom. Not about 2 kids who were not even born yet.

As I tried to tell your coworker. Rom 9 is not about anyones salvation. Its about God chosing the nation of Israel.

Read what God did to the NATION of Edom in that passage in Malachi 1.
Is it really better that God hated an entire nation and destroyed them for generation after generation?
You were explaining to me how God LOVES EVERYONE.

 

[AustinC]

I was not name calling.
Pelagianism is the belief (held by almost no one) that we do not inherit "original sin", so babies are born sinless and everyone has the same choice as Adam to either live a sinless life or to choose to sin. So a true "Pelagian" believes that they can live without sin under their own power ... thus they CAN earn salvation. It is a "pull yourself up by your boot straps" version of Christianity.

It is thrown around as an insult far too often, but I was using it in the technical sense.

You are correct regarding Pelagianism and this is how I have defined it in this thread.
When a poster states that all humanity was elect by God before being born and that one can lose their salvation by rejecting God once they start making decisions on earth, I call that Pelagianism.
Holy until rejection equals Pelagianism.

 

[AustinC]

Read what God did to the NATION of Edom in that passage in Malachi 1.
Is it really better that God hated an entire nation and destroyed them for generation after generation?
You were explaining to me how God LOVES EVERYONE.

Indeed, Peter reminds us that God wiped out the world, except for 8 people he chose to seal into an ark and save through the baptism of those waters. All else perished, even the infants.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 am EDT / 4 am PDT

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Any Baptist will fit into one of these groups:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

this is the problem, people want to put people in groups. and all it does is get people to look at groups. and not the induvidual.

Human will does not cooperate.

When a person becomes desperate. they seek out and look for something anything that can help them. they do not cooperate with the sin, they act out and reach and grab it

the world looks at money, sex, drugs and alcohol. anything that will satisfy what they are missing, but these are just temporary things

God came to give them the only thing that can given them life.. His love.

when we become Bankrupt (poor in spirit) because of God directing and showing himself to us. we have a choice. we can continue to react by reaching to the world. and hide the truth of God, or we can do as the tax collector. and fall on our knees in desperation and call out for Gods mercy.

the pharisee sought religion as his help. because he hid his bancrupt state.

The sinner got on their knee,, and went home justified. because he cried out (recieved) for Gods mercy.

but as many as received him.....to THEM he gave the power or right!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was not name calling.
Pelagianism is the belief (held by almost no one) that we do not inherit "original sin", so babies are born sinless and everyone has the same choice as Adam to either live a sinless life or to choose to sin. So a true "Pelagian" believes that they can live without sin under their own power ... thus they CAN earn salvation. It is a "pull yourself up by your boot straps" version of Christianity.

It is thrown around as an insult far too often, but I was using it in the technical sense.

instead of calling them a name,

when we meet them, why don't we just address their issues..

a christian is someone who believes or claims to follow christ.

We both know not every christian is truly saved. But the world looks at all of us as christian,

so we get (oh your one of those christians)

a jew is seen as evil and maybe not even real jew.. because everyone has them pegged as to what they believe a jew is

I grew up thinking only baptists went to heaven, everyone else was lost. It was not until I stopped putting people under an umbrella of what denomination they went to and if it was not baptist. your lost. and started to listen to them

I found out I was wrong about so much stuff.