The Sovereign will of God

[Eternally Grateful]

Verse 18 seems to imply the reality that was seen when Jesus spoke … many heard the words but few understood (that whole EARS TO HEAR thing [Luke 8:10]). Like Lydia, God makes the difference by opening the heart to hear the words. [Acts of the Apostles 16:14]

so God is a respecter of persons?

if there are two people. both deserving of hell. and God grants one person forgiveness by changing his heart from unbelief to belief. but does not give the other person a chance to even consider it?

sorry bro. Thats not the god of the bible.

 

[AustinC]

so God is a respecter of persons?

if there are two people. both deserving of hell. and God grants one person forgiveness by changing his heart from unbelief to belief. but does not give the other person a chance to even consider it?

sorry bro. Thats not the god of the bible.

Romans 9:14-21

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Perhaps you don't have Romans 9 in your Bible since that's not your image of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So the saved ARE better than the unsaved … we were smart enough to use the gift that everyone got so we DESERVE to be saved and they DESERVE to be damned. Is that the message?

Hooray for US!

[edit: this probably needs a “sarcasm” warning because SOMEONE will miss the sarcasm.]

the saved are better because God chose you and did not chose someone else.

You may not think it means much, But its like a father has 10 kids, and even though non of his children deserve anything from him (they all rebelled against him, they all turned on him, they all slandered and lived their life doing everything he did not want them to do. out of the blue he chooses to give 5 of these damned kids everything he has, and burns the rest alive in fire.

Then he claims he is a father of love.

No one is buying it..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I fully understand what you are saying and it is not what God is saying.

you have no clue what I said.

Because what you CLAIMED I SAID was wrong.

and here you are. instead of showing humility and ASKING what you misunderstood. You continue in pride like you have every time we speak. and demand you know EXACTLY what I said.

Your pride is deep.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Non will perish right? John 3, I Peter?

remember, Paul says he was one born out of due time

Paul still had to chose. as we all had to.

The non who will perish are those out of the world who CHOSE to believe.

Just like those who looked up at the serpent had to CHOSE to look up..

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

the greek here leads and signifies that ANY OF THOSE who believe, ANYONE who believes, ALL WHO believe WIll NOT DIE, but THEY HAVE eternal life.

they do not get life because they were born again, they are born again BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE

saying new birth or regeneration is the cause of belief, not the result of it. is almost as bad as sayign water in this passage is water baptism.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 9:14-21

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Perhaps you don't have Romans 9 in your Bible since that's not your image of God.

Romans 9 is about Gods Chosing of Isreal. I reject the fatalistic view of Romans 9.

Look up the OT passages being quoted. and use them as context. Stop trying to distort a passage to fit your belief system.

 

[JesusFan]

yet you claim people who believe in God for salvation are trying to earn it by works.

Thats being double minded my friend.

Faith is a gift. But just because you get a gift does not mean you will use it or benefit from it.

We react against those who are claiming that they had that faith inherit with themselves, as something they chose to exercise apart from the working of the Holy Spirit!

 

[JesusFan]

Romans 9 is about Gods Chosing of Isreal. I reject the fatalistic view of Romans 9.

Look up the OT passages being quoted. and use them as context. Stop trying to distort a passage to fit your belief system.

Do we chose to accept jesus as lord first, or is that due to God choosing to save us first in Christ Jesus then?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We react against those who are claiming that they had that faith inherit with themselves, as something they chose to exercise apart from the working of the Holy Spirit!

NNE teaches this. (not even arminians)

so who are you against??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do we chose to accept jesus as lord first, or is that due to God choosing to save us first in Christ Jesus then?

God chose to save us before the foundation of the world

We chose to become like the tax collector once we are humble enough with Gods help to realize our bankrupt state.

Not because we were given some special knowledge because we are regenerated IN SIN, but because God through his revelation, his word, and his people, have helped us to understand our situation.

We chose salvation through Christ. THEN after being born again, God helps us chose to honor him as our father..

 

[AustinC]

Romans 9 is about Gods Chosing of Isreal. I reject the fatalistic view of Romans 9.

Look up the OT passages being quoted. and use them as context. Stop trying to distort a passage to fit your belief system.

You are demonstrably wrong in that Paul clarifies who Israel is, twice, in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 2:28-29

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Do you reject yourself as a child of the promise?

The Apostle Paul quotes so much OT scripture to the church at Rome precisely because he is working on both the Gentile and Jewish believers there to get them to remove their prejudice and see themselves as one body in Christ Jesus.

But, you are kicking against the goad's and refuse to accept the unity that Christ brings to the body. You want to keep those prejudices alive and thus restrict scripture to one group as opposed to having all scripture be profitable to all believers.

You are demonstrably wrong on this issue.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do we chose to accept jesus as lord first, or is that due to God choosing to save us first in Christ Jesus then?

God chose to save us before the foundation of the world

We chose to become like the tax collector once we are humble enough with Gods help to realize our bankrupt state.

Not because we were given some special knowledge because we are regenerated IN SIN, but because God through his revelation, his word, and his people, have helped us to understand our situation.

We chose salvation through Christ. THEN after being born again, God helps us chose to honor him as our father..

You are demonstrably wrong in that Paul clarifies who Israel is, twice, in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 2:28-29

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Do you reject yourself as a child of the promise?

The Apostle Paul quotes so much OT scripture to the church at Rome precisely because he is working on both the Gentile and Jewish believers there to get them to remove their prejudice and see themselves as one body in Christ Jesus.

But, you are kicking against the goad's and refuse to accept the unity that Christ brings to the body. You want to keep those prejudices alive and thus restrict scripture to one group as opposed to having all scripture be profitable to all believers.

You are demonstrably wrong on this issue.

typical of a fatalist. You start with vs 6. which is paul answering the question. Has God failed.

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my acountrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

You do not start a chapter 6 verses out. and then use that to interpret a passage.,

Paul is answer the question in 3 chapters (ch 9 - 11) that has been askked and continually asked even today.

Did God fail

at what?

Choosing Israel..

Look at those chapters in that way, and you will understand what paul is saying

Neither jew or gentile concerns salvation. Romans 9 - 11 is not about who is saved or not. it is about a nation God chose with he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and rescued from Egypt and gave the law.

 

[AustinC]

God chose to save us before the foundation of the world

We chose to become like the tax collector once we are humble enough with Gods help to realize our bankrupt state.

Not because we were given some special knowledge because we are regenerated IN SIN, but because God through his revelation, his word, and his people, have helped us to understand our situation.

We chose salvation through Christ. THEN after being born again, God helps us chose to honor him as our father..






typical of a fatalist. You start with vs 6. which is paul answering the question. Has God failed.

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my acountrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

You do not start a chapter 6 verses out. and then use that to interpret a passage.,

Paul is answer the question in 3 chapters (ch 9 - 11) that has been askked and continually asked even today.

Did God fail

at what?

Choosing Israel..

Look at those chapters in that way, and you will understand what paul is saying

Neither jew or gentile concerns salvation. Romans 9 - 11 is not about who is saved or not. it is about a nation God chose with he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and rescued from Egypt and gave the law.

So...you ignore Romans 2. Got it. It is clear you would rather believe your own false narrative than believe what God tells you. Read Paul's letter and see that he is bringing Jew and Gentile together as one, not separating them as you are attempting to do. But, you have to twist this in Romans 9 because an honest reading forces you to toss out your false teaching.

I am shocked that you teach everyone as saved and only fallen by choice in life. That's full on Pelagianism that the BB says is a false teaching. It's surprising no moderator has contacted you for your false teaching.
Your view makes much of the Bibles teaching false while you demand you are right. Perhaps Paul was incorrect when he says "we were dead in our trespasses and sins." According to you "we were once alive and elect" but after being alive, we made ourselves dead.
Your teaching is the exact opposite of the Bible. I honestly don't know how an open Pelagian isn't addressed by the moderators.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So...you ignore Romans 2. Got it. It is clear you would rather believe your own false narrative than believe what God tells you. Read Paul's letter and see that he is bringing Jew and Gentile together as one, not separating them as you are attempting to do. But, you have to twist this in Romans 9 because an honest reading forces you to toss out your false teaching.

I am shocked that you teach everyone as saved and only fallen by choice in life. That's full on Pelagianism that the BB says is a false teaching. It's surprising no moderator has contacted you for your false teaching.
Your view makes much of the Bibles teaching false while you demand you are right. Perhaps Paul was incorrect when he says "we were dead in our trespasses and sins." According to you "we were once alive and elect" but after being alive, we made ourselves dead.
Your teaching is the exact opposite of the Bible. I honestly don't know how an open Pelagian isn't addressed by the moderators.

so you think throwing romans 2 in my face without explanation will help you? You just proving my point about these silly discussions

I have no clue what palaganism means nor do I care. what I care is what the word say. I hope and pray you would als.

as for a modorator cantacting me? Dude if you want to report me please do. You are teaching calvanism, which is most baptist church (actually everyone I have been a member of) is a false teaching. and your in a baptist chat. If the modorater should be contacting anyone it would be you.

One this is for sure. You have failed to counter me on romans 9. you hyave instead resorted to attack. This just proves you canot counter my argument, so I will move on.

Good day sir.

 

[AustinC]

so you think throwing romans 2 in my face without explanation will help you? You just proving my point about these silly discussions

I have no clue what palaganism means nor do I care. what I care is what the word say. I hope and pray you would als.

as for a modorator cantacting me? Dude if you want to report me please do. You are teaching calvanism, which is most baptist church (actually everyone I have been a member of) is a false teaching. and your in a baptist chat. If the modorater should be contacting anyone it would be you.

One this is for sure. You have failed to counter me on romans 9. you hyave instead resorted to attack. This just proves you canot counter my argument, so I will move on.

Good day sir.

I already provided the exact reference earlier in this thread. At the end of Romans 2 Paul tells us:

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
~ Romans 2:28-29
Note that Paul says the outward things like heritage, tradition and circumcision do not make a person a Jew. But a Jew is one who has been circumcised (marked) by the Spirit of God. (That is all Christians.)
Paul then connects his comments in Romans 2 to Romans 9.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
~ Romans 9:6-8

The connection is clear. Not all Israel is the people of the promise. Only those to whom God gives mercy, grace, and faith are the children of the promise. Not all Israel is Israel.

As to Pelagius. You should know about him. You have picked up his false teaching and are promoting it in your theology. It is biblically unsupported theology that you are presenting and you should be painfully and repentantly aware of your error. We are not saved and made holy before we are ever born and then fall out of salvation by our own choice while we walk this earth. That doctrinal claim of yours is utterly unsupported in the Bible. Yet, you keep preaching it, even though it's not true.

The moderators read these threads. If they choose to allow Pelagian heresy to be promoted here at the BB, that is their decision to make. My point is to let you know that you are in great error in your teaching.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I already provided the exact reference earlier in this thread. At the end of Romans 2 Paul tells us:

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
~ Romans 2:28-29


Note that Paul says the outward things like heritage, tradition and circumcision do not make a person a Jew. But a Jew is one who has been circumcised (marked) by the Spirit of God. (That is all Christians.)

And as I already responded to you. This concerns eternal salvation. It does not concern Jesus chosing Israel as a select nation and all the promises given to them through the abrahamic covenant.

what your doing is trying to take the covenant between God and Israel. and claiming it is now null and void. or it is no fulfilled in the church. that is just not so.

Paul then connects his comments in Romans 2 to Romans 9.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
~ Romans 9:6-8

And you CONTINUE to ignore vs 1 - 5 to get the context of the page. Your continuing to make romans 9 a salvation issue. it is not.

The connection is clear. Not all Israel is the people of the promise. Only those to whom God gives mercy, grace, and faith are the children of the promise. Not all Israel is Israel.

God made specific promises to isreal (see gen 12 - 17 when God gave them directly to abraham)

these promises or covenants were renewed with Isaac and Jacob

They are verified in Lev 26, up to and including even if Israel failed and was cast out. if they repent, he will bring them back

And OT prophets not only prophesied that gentiles would be given a time (the church) but that they too would eventually fail, and at that time, israel will repent and restored.

If you would actually read romans 9 - 11 you would see this.

As to Pelagius. You should know about him. You have picked up his false teaching and are promoting it in your theology. It is biblically unsupported theology that you are presenting and you should be painfully and repentantly aware of your error. We are not saved and made holy before we are ever born and then fall out of salvation by our own choice while we walk this earth. That doctrinal claim of yours is utterly unsupported in the Bible. Yet, you keep preaching it, even though it's not true.

not worthy a response.

Look at the word. Not your preconcieved biases

The moderators read these threads. If they choose to allow Pelagian heresy to be promoted here at the BB, that is their decision to make. My point is to let you know that you are in great error in your teaching.

bearing false witness is a sin. Maybe I should report you as a sinner. and an accuser of others.. and they will take care of you.

or maybe we could sit and have a normal discussion. and you could set your pride aside..

I won't hold my breath though

 

[AustinC]

And as I already responded to you. This concerns eternal salvation. It does not concern Jesus chosing Israel as a select nation and all the promises given to them through the abrahamic covenant.

what your doing is trying to take the covenant between God and Israel. and claiming it is now null and void. or it is no fulfilled in the church. that is just not so.



And you CONTINUE to ignore vs 1 - 5 to get the context of the page. Your continuing to make romans 9 a salvation issue. it is not.


God made specific promises to isreal (see gen 12 - 17 when God gave them directly to abraham)

these promises or covenants were renewed with Isaac and Jacob

They are verified in Lev 26, up to and including even if Israel failed and was cast out. if they repent, he will bring them back

And OT prophets not only prophesied that gentiles would be given a time (the church) but that they too would eventually fail, and at that time, israel will repent and restored.

If you would actually read romans 9 - 11 you would see this.



not worthy a response.

Look at the word. Not your preconcieved biases

bearing false witness is a sin. Maybe I should report you as a sinner. and an accuser of others.. and they will take care of you.

or maybe we could sit and have a normal discussion. and you could set your pride aside..

I won't hold my breath though

First, I have not ignored any of Romans 9,but you seem bent on ignoring Romans 1 through 8, which is a continuous argument that Paul is addressing concerning justification by faith alone for both the Jew and Gentile. Paul is breaking down the dividing line and you are busy trying to rebuild the dividing line. Read the whole letter because you are presently arguing from ignorance of the whole.

Second, there is no false witness from me toward you. You have openly proclaimed a Pelagian belief that this board and all of historical Christianity has rejected as heresy. This is fact, not false witness.
Now, you seem unaware of these historical debates that have denounced Pelagian teachings. I am showing you the error you have. You can choose to willfully ignore the facts or you can review your theology and change your position so as not to be teaching Pelagianism. That's for you to determine. But, there is no false witness going on. You have openly stated that humans are born saved and then later become unsaved.

Finally, the Abrahamic Covenant is for all the world. The offspring of Abraham is anyone who has faith in the Promised Redeemer, Jesus Christ our Lord. You do not understand the Covenants and thus you err.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First, I have not ignored any of Romans 9,but you seem bent on ignoring Romans 1 through 8, which is a continuous argument that Paul is addressing concerning justification by faith alone for both the Jew and Gentile. Paul is breaking down the dividing line and you are busy trying to rebuild the dividing line. Read the whole letter because you are presently arguing from ignorance of the whole.

Actually, no I did not ignore that at all.

rom,ans 1 - 8 is called the romans road by many. Justification has always been by grace through faith no matter who you are.

The fact you can read my last post and insist I did not believe this, is just further proof of your inability to read what people say

Rom 9 - 11 is Paul responding to the physical israel delima.. Did God make a mistake.

Paul said no.

Second, there is no false witness from me toward you. You have openly proclaimed a Pelagian belief that this board and all of historical Christianity has rejected as heresy. This is fact, not false witness.
Now, you seem unaware of these historical debates that have denounced Pelagian teachings. I am showing you the error you have. You can choose to willfully ignore the facts or you can review your theology and change your position so as not to be teaching Pelagianism. That's for you to determine. But, there is no false witness going on. You have openly stated that humans are born saved and then later become unsaved.

Whatever dude. Your about to get the ignore button. I am sick of your arrogance.

Finally, the Abrahamic Covenant is for all the world. The offspring of Abraham is anyone who has faith in the Promised Redeemer, Jesus Christ our Lord. You do not understand the Covenants and thus you err.

God told abraham, in YOU shall all nations be blessed (spiritual Israel)

That is to the world

God told abraham, To you and your descendants after you I give this land as an eternal possession. (and other things went along with this promise)

that is NOT to the whole world. That is to ONE of his sons and a line of what we call PHYSICAL ISRAEL.

learn to differentiate between the two.

 

[AustinC]

Actually, no I did not ignore that at all.

rom,ans 1 - 8 is called the romans road by many. Justification has always been by grace through faith no matter who you are.

The fact you can read my last post and insist I did not believe this, is just further proof of your inability to read what people say

Rom 9 - 11 is Paul responding to the physical israel delima.. Did God make a mistake.

Paul said no.


Whatever dude. Your about to get the ignore button. I am sick of your arrogance.



God told abraham, in YOU shall all nations be blessed (spiritual Israel)

That is to the world

God told abraham, To you and your descendants after you I give this land as an eternal possession. (and other things went along with this promise)

that is NOT to the whole world. That is to ONE of his sons and a line of what we call PHYSICAL ISRAEL.

learn to differentiate between the two.

We are the descendants of Abraham. We are the children of the Promise.

You have been teaching Pelagianism. It is in your own words and no one else's.

 

[atpollard]

Faith is a gift.

But fatalists take it a step further.. and claim those of us who believe in salvation by free will faith are working to earn salvation.

I hope they do not try to deny this,,

I have heard others argue that it is a work.
Some make a flawed argument.
Others imply something subtler ... anything (other than God) REQUIRED for salvation steals some of the "glory" from God. It is in that sense that they accuse man-made faith as a prerequisite for divine salvation as being a "work". It is a bit sloppy of rhetoric, but I understand their point. They are accusing you of crediting man with part of the work of God (since they view salvation as 100% the work of God).

Personally, I just think that you have the cart before the horse. For me "salvation" unfolded something like this:

1. I became aware of God
2. I became aware of my need to repent of my sin
3. God forgave me of my sin.
4. My eyes were opened to the hand of God drawing me to #1 and #2 when I thought that I was the clever one.

So God chose me before I chose God ... I was just not aware of it at the time.
(I cannot speak to anyone else's experience ... I am only an expert on my own.)

So I don't hate "synergysm", I just cannot affirm it.