The two witnesses

[revmwc]

Why is it that you Darbyites have to try to lie about what people believe because you do not understand what they say or what Scripture states/.




Jesus Christ is already reigning. Why can't you believe that?


You are blowing smoke now!



2 Peter 3:7-13
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Read the above Scripture and show where this present earth will be renovated. Also Verse 10 tells us the Day of the Lord" will come unexpectedly, not after He reigns for 1000 years.


You obviously do not understand what I am saying.

Your problem is you have been brainwashed by the pre-trib-dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby!

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Much of what I study is from Matthew Henry, Newell, John Gill. I have looked at some of the Expositors commentaries. Ever seen Henry's work and writing or do you avoid all those old time teachers and go with the more modern ones who started the views you have? I also have read some of M.R. Dehaan's and Ironside, some of theirs I don't agree with but others I do. As with all I don't take everything I read from them as truth. I allow the Holy spirit to be my guide on what I accept and do not accept. Just I cannot see you view as truth, the Spirit convicts me that it is not and if it cannot mesh with unfulfilled Old Testament Promises through that prophecy it cannot be accepted as truth.

 

[revmwc]

Carry off by force. Are you saying that the Saints don't want to be resurrected or changed in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye. Jesus Christ has to take them. That is an interesting take on the resurrection/rapture.



Where does Daniel talk about the beast and the false prophet?


So where does Scripture tell us that weeks mean years?


Matthew 24 tells us primarily of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. I believe there is also mention of the return of jesus Christ at the time of the general Resurrection and Judgment. {See Below.}

Please provide me with the names of the 12 tribes mentioned in the passage you reference. Also please provide the names of the tribes missing!



It is the bucket of Darbyism that is full of holes and that the Saints are resurrected by "force" is just one of many!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We see in Genesis these tribes:
a. Rueben
b. Simeon
c. Levi
d. Judah
e. Zebulun
f. Issachar
g. Dan
h. Gad
i. Asher
j. Naphtali
k. of Joseph
1. Ephraim
2. Mannesseh
l. Benjamin

7. The list from Revelation 7 goes like this:
a. Judah
b. Reuben
c. Gad
d. Asher
e. Naphtali
f. Manasseseh
g. Simeon
h. Levi
i. Issachar
j. Zebulon
k. Joseph
l. Benjamin
8. One tribe from Genesis 49 is missing left totally out. That tribe is Dan. Also there is no mention of Ephraim.

Why is Dan omitted you might wonder.

One of Joseph’s sons is added along with Joseph, so Joseph gets the double portion.

Note from the historical record in the book of Judges, that Dan was the first tribe to go into idolatry. thus he is left out. ephraim also went into idolatry and thus is left out of these tribes. But here are the 144,000.

Daniel 7:23-25 Parallel the Beast in Revelation 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 11:29-40 fits in parallel to the beast in revelation. At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

The key is of course the Beast in Revelation setting his image up in the temple and requiring them to worship his image, thus the abomination which maketh desolate, the temple in Israel in Jerusalem will be made desolate of worshiping God to worship the image of the beast.

Yet the likeness of antichrist will be placed in the temple in Jerusalem. That will be the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of by Daniel. Jesus referred to this in Matthew 24:15. This image is the abomination that maketh desolate set up in the temple in Jerusalem. The image of the first beast out of the sea, the function to which this beast out of the earth devotes himself is religious, not secular.

 

[OldRegular]

In His resurrection body He will reign and men will be with Him in the 1000 years He reigns upon the earth. Thanks for making my point. You said they can't live with him seeing Him in His glory, they won't see him in His glory they will see Him as the Disciples and others saw Him, in His Resurection body He will rule and reign upon this earth.

It is interesting and hypocritical that you say I prove your point when earlier you make the disparaging remarks about me:

So you believe that in His glory on the day of His resurrection the Disciples couldn't be with Him nor see Him? He didn't physically in His resurrection body come into the upper room, so we need to by your teaching to discard that portion of scripture, because as you say no man can look on His glory. Therefore with what you teach His resurrected Human Body in you was just figuratively raised from the dead is that what you are saying? That would mean that you believe His human body is still in a grave somewhere. That refutes the doctrine taught by the apostles. Because it is in His resurrected Body that He will rule on this earth, as will the Trib

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I did not make your point. Every passage of Scripture that speaks of the return of Jesus Christ states He will return in the full Glory of The Godhead.



MATTHEW 16:27
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

MATTHEW 19:28
28. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

MATTHEW 24:30, 31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

MATTHEW 25:31, 32
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

MATTHEW 26:64
64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven

MARK 8:38
38. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:5-10
5. Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6. Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10. When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

REVELATION 1:7
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

REVELATION 19:11-16
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The above Scripture clearly teach that when Jesus Christ returns it will be in the full Glory of the Godhead.

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John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[OldRegular]

We see in Genesis these tribes:
a. Rueben
b. Simeon
c. Levi
d. Judah
e. Zebulun
f. Issachar
g. Dan
h. Gad
i. Asher
j. Naphtali
k. of Joseph
1. Ephraim
2. Mannesseh
l. Benjamin

7. The list from Revelation 7 goes like this:
a. Judah
b. Reuben
c. Gad
d. Asher
e. Naphtali
f. Manasseseh
g. Simeon
h. Levi
i. Issachar
j. Zebulon
k. Joseph
l. Benjamin
8. One tribe from Genesis 49 is missing left totally out. That tribe is Dan. Also there is no mention of Ephraim.

Why is Dan omitted you might wonder.

One of Joseph’s sons is added along with Joseph, so Joseph gets the double portion.

The truth is that the passage is not to be understood literally! The truth also is that in the Old Testament Ephraim is sometimes used to refer to the Northern tribes.

Hosea 4:16, 17
16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.
17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

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[OldRegular]

Much of what I study is from Matthew Henry, Newell, John Gill. I have looked at some of the Expositors commentaries. Ever seen Henry's work and writing or do you avoid all those old time teachers and go with the more modern ones who started the views you have? I also have read some of M.R. Dehaan's and Ironside, some of theirs I don't agree with but others I do. As with all I don't take everything I read from them as truth. I allow the Holy spirit to be my guide on what I accept and do not accept. Just I cannot see you view as truth, the Spirit convicts me that it is not and if it cannot mesh with unfulfilled Old Testament Promises through that prophecy it cannot be accepted as truth.

There are two truths certain about Scripture:

1} There is only one correct interpretation of Scripture!

2} The Holy Spirit does not teach error!

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The truth is that John nelson Darby is the Father of pre-trib-dispensationalism!

The Dispensational Origins of Modern Premillennialism and John Nelson Darby
by B.L. • September 11, 2011 • 0 Comments

Written by Jack Van Deventer

The doctrine of a secret rapture was first conceived by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in 1827. Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, invented the doctrine claiming there were not one, but two “second comings.” This teaching was immediately challenged as unbiblical by other members of the Brethren. Samuel P. Tregelles, a noted biblical scholar, rejected Darby’s new interpretation as the “height of speculative nonsense.” So tenuous was Darby’s rapture theory that he had lingering doubts about it as late as 1843, and possibly 1845. Another member of the Plymouth Brethren, B.W. Newton, disputed Darby’s new doctrine claiming such a conclusion was only possible if one declared certain passages to be “renounced as not properly ours.”

Sandeen writes, “this is precisely what Darby was prepared to do. Too traditional to admit that biblical authors might have contradicted each other, and too rationalist to admit that the prophetic maze defied penetration, Darby attempted a resolution of his exegetical dilemma by distinguishing between Scripture intended for the Church and Scripture intended for Israel. . . . Darby’s difficulty was solved by assuming that the Gospels were addressed partly to Jews and partly to Christians.”

Thus, the doctrine of the separation of Israel and the Church, the foundation of dispensationalism, was born out of Darby’s attempt to justify his newly fabricated rapture theory with the Bible. Dispensationalists believed justification for carving up the Scriptures came from 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) “rightly dividing the word of truth.” Subsequent dispensationalists divided the Scriptures in terms of categories of people: Jew, Gentile, and Christian. Chafer taught that the only Scriptures addressed specifically to Christians were the gospel of John, Acts, and the Epistles! Pettengill taught that the Great Commission was for the Jews only.

Scofield taught that the Lord’s prayer was a Jewish prayer and ought not be recited by Christians.Along with much of the New Testament, the Old Testament was described as “not for today.” Ryrie dismissed the validity of the Old Testament commands to non-Jews because “the law was never given to Gentiles and is expressly done away for the Christian.” Christians were even mocked as legalists for believing in the Ten Commandments! As other critics have observed, this segmentation of the Bible makes dispensationalism a Christianized version of cultural relativism.

Snowden and others traced the rise of modern premillennialism to a variety of religious splinter groups: the Plymouth Brethren (developed dispensationalism), the Millerites (became the Adventists), Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Pentecostals. Dispensational premillennialism was marketed the same way as the cultic groups.

First, historic Christianity was discredited by the claim that all the prominent commentaries, all the church fathers, and even the Reformers were deluded by “man-made doctrines.” Second, new revelation was claimed. Darby claimed to have received “new truth” or at other times “rediscovered truth” that had been lost since the apostles. Third, enthusiasm was whipped up on the pretense that Christ’s coming was imminent. Frequent false predictions did not seem to deter this enthusiasm.

Snowden cited increasing prophetic fervor in the early 1900’s rising from (1) a “fresh interest and zeal” in interpreting the “signs of the times,” (2) the Great War (WWI) which started a wave of prophetic speculation, and (3) “the fall of Jerusalem out of Mohammedan into Christian hands [which] has whipped the millennarian imagination up to its highest pitch of foresight and prognostication.” This background explains the widespread popularity of the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909, which had a dramatic influence in spreading dispensationalism. Many well-known scholars warned that the teachings of dispensationalism were “unscriptural” (Spurgeon), “heterodox” (Dabney), “bizarre doctrine” and “grievous error” (Warfield), but the warnings went largely unheeded.

Today, dispensationalism is in a theological turmoil, having declined sharply since the 1970’s because of mounting criticism. Grenz notes, “Dispensationalism today is in a state of fluidity. No longer are the rigid distinctives of the past held to with unswerving certainty. Many progressive dispensationalists are no longer certain as to exactly what are the defining tenets of the system that commands their allegiance.” [Permission Graciously Given by The Foundation for Biblical Studies]

http://www.christianjournal.org/the...n-premillennialism-and-john-nelson-darby.html

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[The Biblicist]

It's comforting that you think so highly of us, Bib. Good day to you, too. :wavey:

No problem, any time!

 

[evangelist6589]

No problem, any time!

But you treated me like dirt once. Don't forget that one.

 

[revmwc]

It is interesting and hypocritical that you say I prove your point when earlier you make the disparaging remarks about me:


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Where did I disparage you?

 

[OldRegular]

Where did I disparage you?

Originally Posted by revmwc
So you believe that in His glory on the day of His resurrection the Disciples couldn't be with Him nor see Him? He didn't physically in His resurrection body come into the upper room, so we need to by your teaching to discard that portion of scripture, because as you say no man can look on His glory. Therefore with what you teach His resurrected Human Body in you was just figuratively raised from the dead is that what you are saying? That would mean that you believe His human body is still in a grave somewhere. That refutes the doctrine taught by the apostles. Because it is in His resurrected Body that He will rule on this earth, as will the Trib

All the false remarks below are disparaging and insulting. You say "So you believe:"

1. that in His glory on the day of His resurrection the Disciples couldn't be with Him nor see Him?

2. He didn't physically in His resurrection body come into the upper room

3. so we need to by your teaching to discard that portion of scripture, because as you say no man can look on His glory.

4. Therefore with what you teach His resurrected Human Body in you was just figuratively raised from the dead is that what you are saying?

5. That would mean that you believe His human body is still in a grave somewhere.

6. That refutes the doctrine taught by the apostles.

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But that is the typical pre-trib-dispensational approach.

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[The Biblicist]

But you treated me like dirt once. Don't forget that one.

I had no intent to treat you like dirt. Honestly, I can't remember what instance you are referring to. I have been through the rodeo more than once and all I was saying it is worthless to continue with it as neither side will give in.

 

[revmwc]

All the false remarks below are disparaging and insulting. You say "So you believe:"

1. that in His glory on the day of His resurrection the Disciples couldn't be with Him nor see Him?

2. He didn't physically in His resurrection body come into the upper room

3. so we need to by your teaching to discard that portion of scripture, because as you say no man can look on His glory.

4. Therefore with what you teach His resurrected Human Body in you was just figuratively raised from the dead is that what you are saying?

5. That would mean that you believe His human body is still in a grave somewhere.

6. That refutes the doctrine taught by the apostles.

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But that is the typical pre-trib-dispensational approach.

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So you believe is meant to ask if that is what you believe. So you believe and yo say no I believe this way or that. Didn't mean it as disparaging.

 

[beameup]

The 1260 days is significant as it coincides with 3 1/2 years using the Babylonian calendar of 360 days per year.
The passage of the 3 1/2 years marks the "harpazo" of believing Jews and also marks the beginning of the Wrath of God.
Not to be confused with the "harpazo" of the Body of Christ into heaven, which takes place before the beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" (shabuwa` of years).
I believe that Jeremiah teaches a literal Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates. I agree with that.
I would also add that the two witnesses are (1) Enoch (pre-flood witness, never "died") and (2) Elijah (under the Law, never "died").

 

[revmwc]

The 1260 days is significant as it coincides with 3 1/2 years using the Babylonian calendar of 360 days per year.
The passage of the 3 1/2 years marks the "harpazo" of believing Jews and also marks the beginning of the Wrath of God.
Not to be confused with the "harpazo" of the Body of Christ into heaven, which takes place before the beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" (shabuwa` of years).
I believe that Jeremiah teaches a literal Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates. I agree with that.
I would also add that the two witnesses are (1) Enoch (pre-flood witness, never "died") and (2) Elijah (under the Law, never "died").

Well I see it as Moses and Elijah since they met with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration and the Tribulation in which they will witness is a Jewish period of time.

 

[Greektim]

Not that I agree with him any more... but I think the safest assumption for the witnesses from a dispie viewpoint was made by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He believed that the witnesses are 2 unidentified people, cause really that is the extent of what we can say.

 

[beameup]

Well I see it as Moses and Elijah since they met with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration and the Tribulation in which they will witness is a Jewish period of time.

I agree that it is a "Jewish period of time", however, the entire world rejoices when the two witnesses martyred.
This is God's "last attempt" to reach the entire world (not just Israel) with the truth of Messiah. After they reject that,
there is nothing God can do, and God's wrath begins to be poured out on an unbelieving world (last 3 1/2 years of Daniels 70th "week").
Almost nothing is known of the pre-flood world, but we know that Enoch was the first prophet, so he warned "that generation" (wherein only Noah & family was saved).
There is a lot implied with this view, which deserves further consideration. Could it be a "Jewish time" when Israel preaches the Gospel of the (coming) Kingdom (to the world)?

 

[OldRegular]

There is nothing in Scripture that supports the "snatching away by force" of the Church. The Church, churches, will be here until after the 7th trumpet sounds {Revelation 11:15-19} at which time:

1. Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints,

2. The general resurrection of all the dead occurs {John 5:28, 29},

3. The souls of the returning Saints are reunited with their resurrection bodies,

4. Those still living are given resurrection {incorruptible} bodies {1 Corinthians 15:51ff},

5. The Great White Throne judgment takes place, {Revelation 20:11ff}

6. Satan and his are cast into the Lake of Fire, {Revelation 20:10}

7. The Triune God dwells with all the redeemed of all time in the New heavens and New Earth. {Revelation 21:1ff}

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No real mystery here if people will simply let Scripture speak instead of John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Scofield.

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[Bro. Curtis]

My thanks to Old Regular for his detailed interpretation.

It has given me plenty to absorb.

What about the view that the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Deut. 34, Hebrews 9:27

Moses has died and was buried. If one of the witnesses is him that means he dies twice, and I don't think that is scriptural.

Elijah rode to heaven on a chariot, so I do see where one of them could be him, but the other could not be Moses.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Not that I agree with him any more... but I think the safest assumption for the witnesses from a dispie viewpoint was made by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. He believed that the witnesses are 2 unidentified people, cause really that is the extent of what we can say.

The two witnesses are Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

 

[Greektim]

The two witnesses are Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

They get my vote!

 

[revmwc]

Deut. 34, Hebrews 9:27

Moses has died and was buried. If one of the witnesses is him that means he dies twice, and I don't think that is scriptural.

Elijah rode to heaven on a chariot, so I do see where one of them could be him, but the other could not be Moses.

Who did the three Disciples see with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration? They are identified as Moses and Elijah. Many see the two prophets in the Tribulation as Moses and Elijah due to that fact.