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The Virgin Mary and Original Sin

J. Jump

New Member
Gekko I'm not sure I understand your post.

First do you have Scriptural evidence that the sin nature is not passed through the man?

Secondly are you saying Jesus has no human genetics whatsoever and just used Mary as a birthing channel without any of her genetics attached to Him?
 

xdisciplex

New Member
Ih Mary was only a vessel, something like an incubator then why was Jesus human? Then how can Jesus have died for us, humans if he had nothing from a human? I don't think that it's that easy.
Dr.Alain Cairns spoke about this once and he said that this is a wrong teaching that Mary was only a vessel, if you want I can search the part and upload it here.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
#1. The sinful nature is "inherited" from Adam not "manufactured over time by each individual".

#2. The sinful nature is not only the "weakness" of the one who can not "persevere in doing good as he desires" it is also the "DESIRE to do evil"
 

xdisciplex

New Member
Can somebody give me a verse which says that every human is already born as a sinner? Some christians claim that babies are born sinless and you only become a sinner when you are old enough and decide to sin, but this doesn't make much sense to me because even small children which are beyond the age of accountability fight and lie and after all children are pretty selfish. If a baby doesn't get what it wants it misbehaves and screams and becomes rebellious.
 

xdisciplex

New Member
Is this true? :eek:

Augustine was the one who popularized this view and I believe he used it in order to excuse his sinful nature. He often uses Romans 7:14-21 to show how Paul wrote about man not having any matter in abstaining from our sinful nature. If one reads Romans 6-8, they can see that Paul was referring to living life in Romans 7 but in Romans 6 and 8 Paul describes living life by Grace which sets us free from the bondage of the law. This allows us to live by a higher standard but frees us from the conflict of not doing what is right. "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life" (Rom 6:22).

Augustine found the chief scriptural support for this idea of "Original Sin" in Romans 5:12.
Quote from: Romans 5:12 (NASB)
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Augustine's version of this verse contained a mistranslation. Augustine did not read Greek, the original language of the NT, so he used a Latin translation now called the Vulgate. It renders the last half of the verse as "and so death spread to all men, through one man, in whom all men sinned." (quoted in Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition, p. 299) He concluded that "in whom" referred to Adam and that somehow all people had sinned when Adam had sinned. He made Adam a kind of corporate personality who contained the nature of all future men, which he transmitted through his semen. Augustine wrote, "We all were in that one man...already the seminal nature was there from which we were to be propagated." (City of God, 13:14). Thus all of Adam's descendants are both corrupt and condemned because they were present inside of him (as semen) when he sinned. Augustine described sin as something "contracted" and passed through the human race like a venereal disease. Jesus was exempt from original sin since, according to the orthodox, he was conceived without semen.

Ezekiel 18:20 makes it clear that sin is a result of each individual person and is not passed down from generation to generation like Augustine believed.


The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
Only Scripture they will give you will say "all" which He is talking to adults but they will say infant also to justify their belief.
 

xdisciplex

New Member
If we are born sinless then everybody of us had a time where he was basically as close to God as Adam, a time where he was spiritually alive. Do you remember seeing God or walking around with God or hearing God? I don't.
And don't you think that something like dying spiritually should have an impact on us and should be recognizable? Do you remember when you first sinned and then died spiritually? I don't. But this is such a huge,fundamental step that one should think that a person notices it.
 

genesis12

Member
xdisciplex, lose the horror mask. Is what true? All of that item? Be specific.


As to original sin,

Rom 5:12 -

The first sin brought the moral ruin of all. The demonstration is simple:

(1) Death is universal (Rom_4:12); (Rom_4:14), all die: sinless infants, moral people, religious people, Christian folk, all die, equally with the depraved. For a universal effect there must be a universal cause; that cause is a state of universal sin (Rom_5:12).

(2) This universal state must have had a cause. It did. The consequence of Adam's sin was that "the many were made sinners" (Rom_5:19) -- "By the offence of one judgment came upon all men unto condemnation" (Rom_5:18).

Forget Augustine. What does The Book say?

:thumbs:
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
xdisciplex said:
Can somebody give me a verse which says that every human is already born as a sinner? ...even small children which are beyond the age of accountability fight and lie and after all children are pretty selfish. If a baby doesn't get what it wants it misbehaves and screams and becomes rebellious.

There is NO ONE that does good - not even ONE Rom 3 (which is a referenc to Scripture in the OT obviously)

It does not say "there is no one over the age of 12 that does good, that seeks after God".

It does not say "there is no one over the age of 3 that does good, that seeks after God".

Eph 2:1-5 points out that we are born in slavery to sin and we are in need of being set free from that slavery.

Infants NEED a savior and they HAVE a Savior. 1John 4:10-14 God sent His son to be the Savior of the World!

"IN Adam ALL die" ALL fall under the curse of sin according to Romans 5 because it is only through sin that death comes.

None of these texts say "ALL except Mary have sinned" and all "except Mary" need forgiveness and salvation from sin.

2Cor 5 says "God made HIM who KNEW NO sin to be sin for us that WE MIGHT become the righteousness of God IN HIM".

It does not say "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for everyone but Mary..."
 
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xdisciplex

New Member
Yes.
It doesn't make sense without original sin. If there is no original sin and we are ALL born sinless and inspite of this we ALL sin then one could also say that God simply created us with a flaw and we cannot even not sin. If we cannot not sin then how can he even hold us accountable for it? This makes no sense to me.
If we were ALL born sinless then shouldn't there also be some people which decide against sin? Why should all fall to sin?
 

xdisciplex

New Member
genesis12 said:
xdisciplex, lose the horror mask. Is what true? All of that item? Be specific.

Yes, all of it. Wether he invented it and so on. If all of this was based on this one guy then it would in fact be a bit strange.
 

genesis12

Member
Forget the one guy. You're right, it doesn't make sense without original sin. Then, once we were out here on this mudball, we got into the habit of sinning. So there is sin, and there are sins.
 
Xdisciplex: It doesn't make sense without original sin. If there is no original sin and we are ALL born sinless and in spite of this we ALL sin then one could also say that God simply created us with a flaw and we cannot even not sin. If we cannot not sin then how can he even hold us accountable for it? This makes no sense to me.
If we were ALL born sinless then shouldn't there also be some people which decide against sin? Why should all fall to sin?

HP: We are not born as moral beings. We are born with the capacity for morality, but we are not moral until we reach the age of accountability. We are incapable of sin at birth.

This is why I tried to address the issue of the definition of sin, to educate and expose false notions concerning sin that confuse us as to the way we are born and the nature of sin. Sin is at its root a moral issue. Morality speak directly to the intent formed in the will and that alone. In order for morality to be predicated of any action there are some things that must be present and some opportunities afforded. First one must have light as to what is required and the necessary abilities needed to perform the command. One must be free to form a contrary intent or no morality can be predicated of the intent. One must be able to do something other than what they do under the very same set of circumstances in order to be blamed or praised for any intent. If something is moral, praise or blame is at the heart of the chosen intent.

If man is born in sin, there is no other possibility than for him to be a sinner. Such a notion eliminates the possibility of contrary choice, and therefore eliminates all possibility of morality being predicated of any intents and subsequent actions induced by those intents. God presents sin as being blameworthy, wicked, heinous, rebellious, willful disobedience against a known commandment of God. Scripture does not present sin, nor will reason allow the conception, of sin as blameworthy if in fact it is necessitated by coercion or force. Original sin mandates that sin is an unavoidable contagion, and eliminates any and all possibility of contrary choice. It reduces sin to a pitiful malady, making God out to be totally unjust for condemning man for someone else’s violation of the law, and for failing to allow for the possibility of becoming something other than necessity demanded them to become. It makes a mockery out of God’s justice and nonsense out of any and all proper conceptions of morals.

God represents the sinner as a willing rebel not a victim of their birth circumstances. Only as we see sin in the light of truth, i.e. willing disobedience to a known commandment of God, can we start to understand in a true light our personal responsibility for the sinful state we are in. Only as we see ourselves as the sole one responsible for our sins can we show sincere remorse, an attitude without which no true repentance can be formulated. I must understand that I could have done something other than what I did under the very same set of circumstances to blame myself for my sin and to show remorse for that sin that repentance demands. Personal guilt and blame is a condition of remorse, and remorse is a prerequisite condition of repentance, without which we shall all likewise perish.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Was she the biological mother of Christ? If so, as a sinner, how could she not transmit sin to Christ, if the the necessitated assumptions concerning original sin are indeed correct? (i.e., Sin lies in the constitution of the flesh as opposed to the will, therfore sin is trnasmitted by physical generation) Any thoughts?

I believe Jesus was born by Holy Spirit as we read in Mt 1:20 in Greek.
He was born out of Holy Spirit already before He came out of Mary. ( Gennao verb was translated as " beget" "begotten" all the time, never as "conceive"

Word became flesh, not the Sperm, the Ovum of Mary was not used.. Mary's Ovum was not designed to be fertilized with Word, but with Sperm.

Jesus was born in Mary by Holy Spirit as a perfect Human Embryo. (Mt 1:20, Heb 10:4-7, etc)

The blood shed at the Cros was not inherited from Mary. He came to save Adam's race ( 1 Cor 15)

Jesus worked before Mary, Abraham was glad to see His days. Jews were upset when they heard Jesus saying " Before Abraham was I am" ( Jn 8:58, 56-58)

Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt. Did he know about Christ? Yes, Read Ex 23:20-23.
There are many verses where you can find Jesus was working in OT times.

Jesus was Sinless, Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior.
She was a Hell-bound woman, but was saved by grace thru Jesus.
 
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ituttut

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: How is original sin passed from parent to child? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

It only takes one bad apple to contaminate. Read further in Job. We find hope of a tree that will be cut down, but the tender branch will not cease. Not one person can bring clean from the unclean, but God can. We are not to limit God, equating Him to we humans.
 
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