The weak foundation of free will

[johnp.]

 

[johnp.]

Most of the Pontifical Augustinian Calvinbelievers are wrong then Bart, man has never been sovereign.

john.

 

[Helen]

man does not have to be sovereign to have a will of his own. That will is a gift from our Sovereign God, who is sovereign enough to deal with it!

But then, you are believing what you believe, John, because it is your free choice to believe it, and that choice is something that God Himself gave you.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnp.:
I take it the two of us includes npetreley? It is an honour for me to be associated with him, I'm not so sure he would approve though.

I consider it an honor to be associated with you.

Thanks for following up on my challenge with great scripture references.

I'm not surprised Tim is having trouble typing. All that spinning is surely making him dizzy. </font>[/QUOTE]Alright now we are getting somewhere. Two men who accept the fact that calvinism leads too their god being the author of sin. So really we are debating about two different gods.
I am surprise Johnp, I thought you were the only calvinist on here that would admit to your god being the authnor of sin. I still give you credit for being consistant with calvinist theology. The fact that you believe in a god who causes or directs a man to sin means we serve different gods.
Npet, you also hate your mother and father, children and friends. Just making sure you two agree as you stated?!
I cannot debate you npet anymore then I can JohnP. See my God cannot sin nor does He tempt others too.
J. Calvin
or
J. Christ.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Helen:
man does not have to be sovereign to have a will of his own. That will is a gift from our Sovereign God, who is sovereign enough to deal with it!

But then, you are believing what you believe, John, because it is your free choice to believe it, and that choice is something that God Himself gave you.

Oh no Helen surely you don't mean it! God can give man choice as shown throughout the scriptures, and still be soveriegn!!!????
Have you not heard of the teachings of Calvin. He must be soveriegn only by the way calvins declare Him to be.

Rocket science is ain't, just gospel.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
man does not have to be sovereign to have a will of his own. That will is a gift from our Sovereign God, who is sovereign enough to deal with it!

I agree with you on both counts, Helen. God gives man a will of his own. Thanks to Adam, man's will is corrupt and disinclined to submit to God. God deals with it by changing the inclination of some men toward him, while hardening the hearts of other men and leaving still others to continue to do as they will, which is to refuse to submit to God.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Alright now we are getting somewhere. Two men who accept the fact that calvinism leads too their god being the author of sin. So really we are debating about two different gods.
I am surprise Johnp, I thought you were the only calvinist on here that would admit to your god being the authnor of sin. I still give you credit for being consistant with calvinist theology. The fact that you believe in a god who causes or directs a man to sin means we serve different gods.
Npet, you also hate your mother and father, children and friends. Just making sure you two agree as you stated?!
I cannot debate you npet anymore then I can JohnP. See my God cannot sin nor does He tempt others too.
J. Calvin
or
J. Christ.

LOL! I knew you'd never answer my question or address the issues of contradiction. It is impossible to do so because you'd have to admit you're wrong, and that's obviously out of the question for you.

But to evade the issue this way is classic. "I can't address your issues because my premise is filled with condradictions that I can't admit, so I'll fall back on the 'different god' thing and make a quick exit, stage right, without having to deal with those issues."

Well, I didn't expect any better, so I'm not disappointed.

 

[Timtoolman]

I have answered your question no less then 3 times. YOu don't accept it cause it is bible. It is truth. You and johnp have declared that you serve a god who is a liar.

I am glad you are not disappointed.

I thank you and johnp for great teaching material. Were ultimately the teachings of calvinism leads. Now I have two that have gone there.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
man does not have to be sovereign to have a will of his own. That will is a gift from our Sovereign God, who is sovereign enough to deal with it!

I agree with you on both counts, Helen. God gives man a will of his own. Thanks to Adam, man's will is corrupt and disinclined to submit to God. God deals with it by changing the inclination of some men toward him, while hardening the hearts of other men and leaving still others to continue to do as they will, which is to refuse to submit to God. </font>[/QUOTE]You have totally destroyed the meaning of 'choice'.

God is not a mocker. He has given each of us a real choice.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
You have totally destroyed the meaning of 'choice'.

God is not a mocker. He has given each of us a real choice.

Of course He has, and we have all chosen sin, every one of us. Fortunately He didn't leave it at that.

 

[Helen]

When you are born with a sin nature (sorry, Craig), as we all were, sinning is not a choice. It is what we do by nature.

However God has given us a choice about receiving a new nature from Him. And that choice is to say yes or no to Him.

 

[Rippon]

Sorry , but that is wrong . A person has as much freedom of the will to choose God as a lion has to choose lettuce instead of raw steak .

But part of what you said is very true -- we sin by nature before regeneration , there is no freedom in those constraints . The will is inclined in only one direction .

 

[Helen]

So "Choose this day whom you will serve" is a bit of mockery?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
When you are born with a sin nature (sorry, Craig), as we all were, sinning is not a choice. It is what we do by nature.

However God has given us a choice about receiving a new nature from Him. And that choice is to say yes or no to Him.

What sin did you ever commit that you did not choose to commit?

 

[Helen]

Oh so many! I look back and see where I was naturally so yucky. I was so proud and snotty. I did not know I was that way, but I can look back and see where I was. I can look at my teen years and see how I hurt people without even knowing I was doing it -- an into my twenties, too. I 'stood up' to my parents, not associating it with sin. Because my focus was me and not others or God, I probably sinned even more than I realize now.

It was when I was in my mid-twenties that I looked at what I had become inside and wanted to throw up spiritually.

I think most of the sins of the unregenerate are not chosen, but simply the natural expression of a very selfish original sin nature.

 

[whatever]

So you didn't choose your sin but you did choose your righteousness? Not me. I chose my pride and snottiness. God chose my righteousness.

 

[Rippon]

Or rather ,the Lord clothed you in His righteousness . Oh , my imputed goodness !

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
You have totally destroyed the meaning of 'choice'.

God is not a mocker. He has given each of us a real choice.

Of course He has, and we have all chosen sin, every one of us. Fortunately He didn't leave it at that. </font>[/QUOTE]I still contend that Adam was choosing to stay in the garden with God and God had to drive him out. I have heard not one scriptural rebutal.
WAITING.....
Thanks -----Bart

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
I still contend that Adam was choosing to stay in the garden with God and God had to drive him out. I have heard not one scriptural rebutal.
WAITING.....
Thanks -----Bart

You may be right, but:

1) The Bible does not say that, so we cannot know whether it is true.

2) If it were true, what difference would it make?

 

[johnp.]

Hello Tim.

The fact that you believe in a god who causes or directs a man to sin means we serve different gods.

That's not possible as all men serve the Sovereign Lord.

See my God cannot sin nor does He tempt others too.

God cannot sin as He is Sovereign, learn what sovereign means. A good start would be to read a bit of history concerning Charles I. His idea of sovereignty was spot on before we took his head off. God is the only Despot not man.

john.