The Will of God in the Fall of Man

[percho]

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Gal 3:19,21 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

If Adam had not sinned, had not eaten of the tree, he would have been righteous and in no need of the promise. His righteousness would have been by the law. There would have been no need for the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If Adam could have been righteous by keeping the law, others could also. There would be no need for the promise of God.

Adam - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. And that wasn't Adam.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Why is is all over sudden a mystery discerning God's will in Genesis? Is it a mystery because we can't comprehend it, or we lack sufficient information, or simply because it cuts through our theological houses of cards?

From scripture it is evident that it was not God's will that man remain in the garden. I call your attention to Genesis 1:28, "28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it". The word "replenish" means to "fill up". From this it can be seen that instead of God meaning for them to remain in the garden, He meant for them to fill up and inhabit the entire earth. Now look at the very next verse, " 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Here we see from this, that man was intended to inhabit the entire earth, from the fact that the fruits that did grow on all the earth were to be meat, or food, for him. And in the second place, we see that the fruit of every tree on earth that bore seed was to be meat for them.

Next look at Acts 17:24-26, "24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" It is clearly seen from this that God's purpose was (not that man should remain in the garden, but) that he should dwell on all the face of the earth. That is what Paul says that He made them for.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Came across this meme and I wish somebody would answer the young theologian
Why is is all over sudden a mystery discerning God's will in Genesis? Is it a mystery because we can't comprehend it, or we lack sufficient information, or simply because it cuts through our theological houses of cards?

The first purpose of God in placing man upon the earth was that he should multiply and replenish it. God made the earth not in vain; he made it to be inhabited. If Adam was able to stand, he was able to defeat God’s purpose in this; for had he stood, there is no ground to believe that the earth would ever have been inhabited; for, “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” John 12:24. These words of Jesus set forth a universal fact in nature, a deep and comprehensive truth. The same truth may be stated in these words: Without death there is no reproduction. In the vegetable world seed must die before they germinate and reproduce their kind. The same principle, although not so plainly exhibited, extends into the animal world. The animal organism embodies both animal and vegetable life mysteriously combined, and the power of reproduction, growth and repair lies in the vegetable life. The multiplication of the human race did not begin until death passed upon the man; so from this it is seen that if Adam was able to stand, he was able to render the creation of the world in vain.

 

[InTheLight]

Nothing has caught Him off guard. Why? He has decreed all that comes to pass.

"All", therefore, includes Adam's fall.

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[BrotherJoseph]

"All", therefore, includes Adam's fall.

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Brother IntheLight,

Yes, it was God's will for the fall to occur. Adam disobeyed God's commandment when he transgressed, but he did not violate any purpose of God. This is similar to the situation in scripture when God commanded Pharaoh by Moses, saying, "thus sayeth the God of the Hebrews, let My people go" (Exodus 9:1), yet He also told Moses, "Yet I will harden his heart and he will not let them go, and I will get Me honor upon him and his host" (Exodus 10:1, 20, , 27, 14:17-18). Did not Pharaoh disobey God when he refused to let them go? And did he not at the same time fulfill God's expressed purpose when he refused to let them go? Then God punished him for his disobedience and was just in so doing just as He was just in punishing Adam.

 

[rigz]

From scripture it is evident that it was not God's will that man remain in the garden. I

Well, the question is not whether to or not to be in he garden, but rather to rebel against God. What is God's will when He commands Adam to never eat of that particular fruit?
(a) To eat
(b) Not to eat

Thanks

God bless

 

[rigz]

"All", therefore, includes Adam's fall.

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Meaning what, He decrees rebellion against Himself?

 

[rigz]

Brother IntheLight,

Yes, it was God's will for the fall to occur. Adam disobeyed God's commandment when he transgressed, but he did not violate any purpose of God. This is similar to the situation in scripture when God commanded Pharaoh by Moses, saying, "thus sayeth the God of the Hebrews, let My people go" (Exodus 9:1), yet He also told Moses, "Yet I will harden his heart and he will not let them go, and I will get Me honor upon him and his host" (Exodus 10:1, 20, , 27, 14:17-18). Did not Pharaoh disobey God when he refused to let them go? And did he not at the same time fulfill God's expressed purpose when he refused to let them go? Then God punished him for his disobedience and was just in so doing just as He was just in punishing Adam.

Pharaoh is a horrendous example
First he was already an object of God's wrath as a pagan meaning hardening or not hardening, he was a dead man walking. God just used this already object of wrath to demonstrate His power to Israel

 

[rigz]

Personally, I don't think that many people actually care about how people feel about the forum.

And nobody suggested that anybody cares, the point was a reminder that this is a forum
And in a forum, we have exchanges(hopefully fruitful)

But to answer your objection - no, other people do not have to articulate and defend their positions to your (or my) satisfaction. You have asked and I have answered. My answer is acceptable to me, which is what matters. We can give people our words, but not our understanding.

If you are going to participate in a thread, you open yourself up to scrutiny and you should not scamper when the going gets tough.

The problem with "logic" is that you are demanding that people submit to yours. Your argument, ultimately, is that if you cannot see or understand the logic then it is wrong.

There is nothing like my logic versus yours, logic is universal. Logic is not opinion and I sincerely pray that the difference between the two be revealed to you

Men have rejected Christianity as foolishness because "logically" if someone dies on a cross they stay dead. So please forgive me if I do not bow to your understanding. I believe it flawed.

Then all you have to do is to demonstrate HOW it is flawed. Substantiate whatever you believe about what I said.

Your fourth paragraph highlights the agenda you have (your misunderstanding). No one has said that God desired Adam to sin. In fact, over and over again you have been answered with exactly the opposite. Sin is rebellion against God.

You may not have said so but I have given you men who clearly believe so. John Calvin believed so, his disciple John MacArthur believes it as well. And one or two comments here said as much. Try and read other comments. It goes a long way.

Why should you believe in a God who says what He does not mean and who means what He does not say? I don't know why you would. I don't. But if that is what you desire then go for it.

This is not the God of the Buble. This is not YHWH,this is confusion incarnate

Would God cause a people who was not planning to harm Israel to instead attack that nation? The God you are describing wouldn't....but the God of the Bible did (or at least he said that He did).

Strawman argument and utter digression. I'm not falling for that.

Would God as you are describing Him plan Judas' betrayal of Christ and give Judas to Christ as a disciple? Of course He wouldn't. But the God of the Bible did.

God never planned Judas' betrayal, at least not in the 66 books and I'm quite certain not in the apocrypha

Would God, as you describe Him, command Israel to kill women and children? Nope, that's just plain mean. But the God of the Bible did.

More strawman. Don't you ever tire of digression? Or is it a fad?

Would your version of God punish Saul for that disobedience? No, He would reward him for sparing those lives. But the God of the Bible did. Perhaps you are seeing a trend here. I am.

Yes I am, digression and strawmen...tons of them

Ultimately you have said that sin and evil is against God, but in practice you determine that it is against man.

Strawmen. I simply defined sin. Evil as I told you is its consequences. You may want to retread my post before pulling more strawmen

Your entire premise examines God's desires (or hypothetical desires) as centered squarely on mankind. If this is true, then you are right that God's desires are inconsistent because man is inconsistent. Man is flawed.

God's will is God's wil regardless of where it is 'centered'

But if God's desire is in truth centered entirely on God, on His glory, then you are dangerously mistaken in your understanding. I think Scripture speaks to the latter as being true.

And according to you, God's desire 'centered on God' is man may do EXACTLY a opposite of what He commanded him?

In the end, however, all you are doing here is trying to twist those views with which you disagree to match the objection in the OP.

The OP is simple; did God orchestrate man's rebellion? Yes or no?

Your frustration seems to be that no one believes what you make them out to believe which in turn conjures images of Don Quixote fighting dragons and enjoying "victories" against enemies that never existed.

Your frustration (and you got tons of that) is that your (mis)understanding of God demands God to will exactly opposite of what He commands and you are annoyed that somebody is pointing this out

 

[rigz]

If you read through the thread, he sought to confuse the concept of ordained, with the idea of God's will.....
.

Apparently you believe there is a difference between 'ordained' and 'willed'. To me this is a distinction without a difference but I may be wrong
Could you be kind enough to differentiate between God ORDAINING and God WILLING something?

God bless

 

[rigz]

SG
Looks like this poster did not want an answer after all. Most who want to blame God for mans sin are not really submitted to Jesus as Lord as he has now confessed his rebellious heart.CautiousCautiousCautious

I believe there is a rule here against questioning somebody's salvation. You are doing just that. Not that I care really but I wish to counsel you lest you get banned and then throw some tantrums.

Please be kind enough to explain what God's will is and contrast that with what God ordains.

Can/does God ordain stuff He never wills?

 

[InTheLight]

Meaning what, He decrees rebellion against Himself?

I don't believe that. I was pointing out to SovereignGrace that if someone says all is decreed by God then it must include Adam's rebellion and sin.

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[rigz]

I don't believe that. I was pointing out to @SovereignGrace that if someone says all is decreed by God then it must include Adam's rebellion and sin.

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I see,
What I'm seeing is a lot of liberty in using jargon (permissive/decretive will,decree,ordain,desire,will...) that nobody is interested in defining for obvious reasons; the error/contradictions of their thinking will be exposed.

Let's examine the decree;
Should a decree be made and its intentions carried out as a result, then the author of the decree is the author of the decree’s fulfilled intentions. A good example of this is in Exodus;

Exodus 1:22 (KJV)
And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Who authored this heinous crime? Is it the Hebrews? The Egyptians (probably soldiers) or Pharaoh?
Isn't it obvious that Pharaoh was?

Now, would Pharaoh's culpability change if he personally never killed any Hebrew? What if the soldiers were highly reluctant to execute the order but they did it anyway? I don't think so. Pharaoh authored the decree and therefore, it is his intent that was executed. Pharaoh is the mastermind and therefore the author of the crime.

So @InTheLight, to agree with you, the author of the decree is fully responsible for its execution. If God decreed the Fall, He is the author of sin.

The problem with some here is they have never thought through the logical conclusion of their belief systems

 

[rigz]

And with this post, I bid you adieu. I thought you wanted a meaningful discussion, but should have known better. Adieu mon ami.

Thank you for stopping by, you remind me of the many who withdrew at the hard sayings of Jesus. I don't blame you

John 6:60 (KJV)
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? ....66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[InTheLight]

The problem with some here is they have never thought through the logical conclusion of their belief systems

I agree. When you point this out to them they either clam up or complain because you are not using scripture. As if the Bible contains definitions of logical fallacies.



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[rigz]

I agree. When you point this out to them they either clam up or complain because you are not using scripture. As if the Bible contains definitions of logical fallacies.



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LaughRoflmaoBiggrin
Very true!

Next, let's look at Calvin;
every evil proceeds from no other fountain other than the wicked lusts of man.- Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles, page 289

So evil proceeds from man not God?
This is is diversionary for they still maintain that every thought and intent of man has been eternally immutably and irresistibly decreed by God such that they couldn't have chosen otherwise!

One ,overwhelmed by common sense and logic, may admit that God does not author every thought and intent. This is the truth; God in His sovereignty allows men to make free choices, and as such they are fully responsible for them. This is exactly what happened at Eden.

 

[InTheLight]

Well, the God of Calvinism commands all men everywhere to repent but does not give these "dead" people any ability to do so, and condemns them to Hell for it.

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[BrotherJoseph]

Well, the question is not whether to or not to be in he garden, but rather to rebel against God. What is God's will when He commands Adam to never eat of that particular fruit?
(a) To eat
(b) Not to eat
Thanks

Hi brother,

I will let scripture answer your question, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11). Does "all things" here mean "all things" or "some things"

Now that I answered your questions, I have a few of my own and hope for an answer. Is God the first cause of all causes, if not, who is? Are there effects without causes, if so give an example?

What intelligent man, going to build or create something, does not first consult his will as to what he wants it to do? And having determined just what he wants it to do, does he not then engage his wisdom to devise a plan for the making of it so that it will meet and perform the exact demands of his will? Is God less intelligent than man? If what if what God has made is doing that which He did not will or purpose for it to do, and is leaving undone that which He did will or purpose for it to do, does not His perfection stand impeached by the workmanship of His hand just as truly as man's perfection does when judged by the same rule? If man wouldn't create something knowing in advance that it wouldn't turn out as he intended, why do you think God would? That is illogical,

I look forward to your answers.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[rigz]

Hi brother,

I will let scripture answer your question, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11). Does "all things" here mean "all things" or "some things"

Now that I answered your questions, I have a few of my own and hope for an answer. Is God the first cause of all causes, if not, who is? Are there effects without causes, if so give an example?

What intelligent man, going to build or create something, does not first consult his will as to what he wants it to do? And having determined just what he wants it to do, does he not then engage his wisdom to devise a plan for the making of it so that it will meet and perform the exact demands of his will? Is God less intelligent than man? If what if what God has made is doing that which He did not will or purpose for it to do, and is leaving undone that which He did will or purpose for it to do, does not His perfection stand impeached by the workmanship of His hand just as truly as man's perfection does when judged by the same rule? If man wouldn't create something knowing in advance that it wouldn't turn out as he intended, why do you think God would? That is illogical,

I look forward to your answers.

God bless,

Brother Joe

And your answer is what, (a) or (b)?

God commands Adam not to eat. What is His will, that he may eat or not eat?

 

[InTheLight]

LaughRoflmaoBiggrin
Very true!

Next, let's look at Calvin;
every evil proceeds from no other fountain other than the wicked lusts of man.- Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles, page 289

So evil proceeds from man not God?
This is is diversionary for they still maintain that every thought and intent of man has been eternally immutably and irresistibly decreed by God such that they couldn't have chosen otherwise!

One ,overwhelmed by common sense and logic, may admit that God does not author every thought and intent. This is the truth; God in His sovereignty allows men to make free choices, and as such they are fully responsible for them. This is exactly what happened at Eden.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

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