The "World"

In Other Words :thumbs:

 

Thank you Princess.

john.

 

No, it does ALWAYS mean sinners. Reread what I said again.
God through Christ gives life to the world if the world will believe. Not all the world will believe but it is still offered to them.

Well, I could almost agree there but for verses like this one in scripture

 

God loving men is contingent on you loving vegetables? :laugh:

Do you really hate peas...or dislike their taste? Do you hate the health benefits peas offer...or just the taste? Do you hate the shape and color...or just the taste? Sounds like there is one element of the peas you "hate"...the taste. I don't think you really hate round little quarter inch green balls, or consuming something that will keep you healthy and strong. Same rings true with us. God hates sins, but loves the rest.

 

Cool.

Although we would be under the jurisdiction of the law we could never receive the wrath of God because we were loved. We were, in the eternal purposes of God, slated for salvation. Eph 2:3 ...Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But we were to have our nature changed. Wrath cannot come to the elect but only love and correction.

Why do you say that? What I meant was that you were not including those who have been forgiven since the world is never a description of the saved.

So what was the previous about? So you say that the 'world' here means all sinners not all men. Answer the question please.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Jews and Gentiles. Look what an atoning sacrifice does man. Atoning sacrifice atones. Nothing else is needed if one's sins are atoned for. All one's sins are dealt with by an atoning sacrifice whether you witness the sacrifice or not. It is given not received. The whole of Israel did not need to be there in Jerusalem to benefit from the atonement, it covered the whole nation. Don't view the atonement as a thing to seek out but as a thing decided by another concerning who benefits from it and who doesn't. With the blood of Christ the atonement is a one off and needs nothing else to see the atoned one atoned and righteous, holy and pure in God's sight. The world? Jesus never asked me if I wanted atoning, He just went ahead and did it anyway. I am no longer considered or viewed as guilty because Jesus died for my sins without my permission.

If Christ was the propitiation for the whole of the race then the whole are saved.

propitiation : to appease or placate (an angry or insulted person or god )
And Christ did that didn't He? He placated the Angry God for us and if He placated the Angry God for us then the Angry God cannot be angry anymore and if He did that for all then God would not be angry anymore with any of us because Jesus placated Him on our behalf.

That is not what I said that is what you are saying. Why do you not know that?

No of course not. But you know I'm not saying God loves all men, that is what you are saying. If you think I'm saying that you must think again because you know I'm not saying that. Be straight with me. Be serious. We are talking about a God that either creates men for Hell or His love, which He defined, fails. In discussing the word 'world' we must also discuss 'love'. He loved the world. There is no soft shoe shuffle man.
Which is it: God loved the entire race and His loves fails or He did not love everyone and His word and His love stay intact?

No we are not. You are an American, how often do you have to remind yourself of being American? We are strangers in a strange land yet we are not part of that land and it will show. A born again Christian will behave like a born again Christian as a Huron, South Dekotan will behave like a Huron, South Dekotan will behave. Just to touch on it. Christianity isn't a set of rules and regs but a way of being. The new nature is a new nature and will overcome.

john.

 

Ask my son if he hates brussel sprouts man and you will see detestation in it's full colours. Hate is apt webdog.

What is it that God hates about sinners? Sinners are no different than saints are they?

God hates sinners as well. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. Lev 26:30.

john.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't read "God hates sinners" from that verse. Like I said to James, your son hates brussel sprouts. What does he hate about them?

 

Their very existence. Are you so old you have forgotten or were you a good boy webdog? But rather than my son get in the way I see you make no mention of the scripture. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

john.

 

when I say I hate peas, I mean I hate peas.

When I say I love football, but I do not like Ohio State football....is that a lie? No. Both statements are true.

God loves the world....

Now...going by Romans 9...does God also hate?

 

Much like my son James.

Very much like the bread of life webdog?

john.

 

Yes, and as an object OF wrath, you were under that jurisdiction until you were changed in nature by God through faith. For until then the wrath of God abode on you as says the scriptures.

Of course. Can you include and exmember of Mcdonalds as part of the present crew. No. And you can not equate the saved with the world from which they have been removed. World means all sinners.

I have not contended world means ALL MEN but it means ALL Sinners in context of people

This is the whole point of our discussion. Since world DOES mean Sinners your understanding of some points in scripture must be re-evaluted because they do not line up biblically. And your view on atonement if off as well. The Jewish priest made atonement for the sins of ALL of Israel (without many's permission) but not everyone's sins were atoned for in that atonement offering. Only those who accepted its atoning work in their lives (believed/recieved) were atoned for. The rest of that blood shed for the atonement was poured out at the base of the alter to be trampled under foot.

Again your understanding of atonement is inaccurate, flawed, or amiss - take your pick.

That is right. Christ made the way for men to come to God so that the wrath of God against them would not first destroy them. This is why scripture speaks to:

IF Christ completely reconsiled the world to God then why does Paul beseech or beg them TO BE reconsiled. Becuase though it is set forth it must accepted!

or more literally from the Greek as it was originally writen:
let God reconcile you to Himself - Notice still them meaning is not changed. "Let" God reconcile you or "allow' God reconcile you.

No, that is what you are discussing. I am discussing what the bible says concerning the "world". And it means sinners.

He fails at nothing, and if He loves the "world" sinner, whom Christ came save, and of whom He is the propitation of the WHOLE world (all the world) - then I guess you have some things to figure out.

 

Allan,

Please share how you think this harms Calvinism? I would see it as great support. The blood of the atonement was given for only Gods people, and not the whole world.

 

I didn't say it harmed anything James.
But regarding the above and its difference with Calvinism is that Atonement is made on behalf of everyone (in my example ALL of Israel - Gods people but not all of Gods people were saved). Yet it only atones for those who will receive that atoning work done by priest. Those who will not beleive/recieve that work done are left without hope.

It is called Universal Atonement but is also Specific Redeption.

 

Then you will fully see and understand why Calvinist see it as they do. God loves his people and dies for them and them only...and not the world. Not that you agree, but i'm sure you see the reasoning. As to those in Israel that did not believe. The picture in the OT was just that..a picture. The blood of animals can never work and take away sin. This taking of blood of animals happend each year, but only once as in the case of Christ. In fact, the saving power of the OT was not in the blood seen at that moment, but in the blood to come on the cross. So the saving power found in the OT is nothing other then the faith placed in the spotless Lamb of the NT. Yet to those it is applied remains the same. The atonement was to His people and His people only.

 

Not me but Scirpture does not agree with your position on that (regarding ONLY).

No, the atonement was for the Whole NATION of Israel (All of Gods people), not some special portion within those ranks. Yet we know all of the Nation was not saved because they did not receive that atonement offered for them all. Scirpture does not state it otherwise. It is infatic the sacrifice is for whole nation, whole assembly, all Israel...

Scripture states it was given for the Whole congregation...for all the people...for Israel, ext... Atonement for them all and yet all did not receive because they would not believe. Jesus is the that same atoning sacrifice made on behalf of the 'Whole World' and not ours (believers) only. 'World' means sinners, it always has and always shall. Just as God was in Christ reconciling the "world" to himself but Paul beseeches (pleads or begs) THEM to be reconciled TO God.

BTW - of course the animal blood didn't save but was a looking forward to Christ Himself (receiving by faith that which God promised to them who obey). Have I ever contended otherwise, no.

 

Were you a sheep before you were saved? If so this would mean you were already a child of God. Scripture says we are Children of God by faith;

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

We simply are not lost sheep before Salvation. Before Salvation we have no faith in Christ and we do not belong to Him until we do.

A lost sheep is already a believer but has strayed.
MB

 

Allan,

ok..

Yes...I believe this is what I said. The whole nation

Indeed...non were saved because of this. right?

As I stated. Yet this was not the other nations, now was it? Just appied to His people...His nation.

Indeed..as I have stated. What about Egypt? Was the atonement for Egypt?

Verse please.

Where as the OT atonement was only a picture, Christ work was the real thing. It was finished after the cross.

So now you want to renege on what you said about John 6?

I believe you speak of 2 cor 5. Lets look at the verses. One line at a time in order.

I guess we need a understanding of rreconciled before we get into it. What do you feel it means?

So then you would agree the atonement is applied to ALL Gods people, but in the OT is a picture of the NT where it too is applied to ALL Gods people..AND...it is understood that the OT picture never did work.....and.....it is also understood that the NT worked. In both cases it was not applied to Egypt...a picture of the world in the OT. right?

 

What does it matter? God has His own reasons, He doesn't ask our opinion as to the "benefits" or lack thereof of anything He does.

He "bought" even those who willingly deny Him:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

If one "needs" to know the benefit:​

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

RE:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John himself defines "the whole world" later in his epistle:​

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.​

So, the propitiation (satisfaction) for sin was made for the whole world(which lies in the wicked one (literally)), believers and non-believers, so that the whole world can have no excuse and every mouth will be stopped in that day.​

Not only was satisfaction made for the world but the Holy Spirit is sent to the whole world (believers and non-believers):​

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

Indeed it takes an unattainable (humanly speaking) spiritual ability to believe on Christ and the divine conviction of sin is the only means of making the unbeliever potentially desire to be saved. without both the satisfaction for sin having been made (from the foundation of the world) and the conviction of sin provided in the present moment, no one could even hope to be saved.​

Again, no one will have the excuse "I wasn't given a fair chance".

And again, we hear that it doesn't make sense that if Christ died for all men, some, many, most will go to hell (or words to that effect).​

But, isn't that for God to decide what makes sense?​

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

He does what He pleases even if it upsets us (yes, me as well-of course).​

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.​

There is another parameter:

Genesis 18:25c ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

HankD​

 

Hello Allan.

Of course I understand your relutance to discuss God's failing love but it is intregal to the verse isn't it? "God so loved the world." What does 'world' mean and what does 'love' mean are the two main questions in this verse and must be dealt with together.

If God loves all sinners why does His love fail? Love protects and it is kind and if God created people for Hell He would not know why He sends them there because love keeps no record of wrongs. Read all about it in 1 Cor 13:4-8...

Love itself is defining the word 'world' in this verse.

Not all sinners because of the modifier love. Love never fails.

Which is it: God loved the entire race and His loves fails or He did not love everyone and His word and His love stay intact?

I can see that. But you cannot brush it off. If Jesus loves everybody then His love has failed for many. Love and Hell are not compatible. Don't you understand love? You do not. If God loved everybody He would find a way to overcome all obstacles even to the point of death. Love does not take no for an answer. Love does not plop people into a firely pit with intent to torture forever. I know some of my old lovers might want to do this but God's love never fails.

You don't want to talk about love because love destroys the world in this verse, for you. If God loves all men where does this love go when men refuse Him? This must be resolved by you or you will stay with a false doctrine.

john.

 

Hello HankD,

I notice that you posted a few verses that you feel carry the idea that the word "world" means all of mankind. As to the OP, does the "world" always mean all of mankind?