The "World"

[Allan]

You can't read very well James, or maybe you just can't understand.

Allan,
You mean you do not think that the Jewish nation of the OT and Gods people of the OT are one and the same?

I didn't say that now did I? I know YOUR beleif and where you stand on Atonement. You hold it was only for the elect. I was showing the Elect were not all saved in the OT even though ALL of the elect were atoned for by the High Priests.

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His own inheritance" (Psalm 33:12)

And your point is...? I have never contended otherwise.

Indeed and then they that came would be Jewish, which means the atonement would apply to them. right? How about the whole nation of Egypt?? No word on them yet.

No, because the symbolic atonement took place IN Egypt and all those who came out had that atonement applied to them. They were warned and the propitiation given (lambs blood on the door post) but Egypt didn't accept it. We see in the other plagues there were Egyptians who believed God concerning particular plagues and did accordingly to save what they could but did any obey THIS time- scripture doesn't say they did but maybe some did. You seem to ALWAYS forget about the symbol of atonement IN Egypt BEFORE Gods people came forth.

No..none of them were saved based on the picture. Yet the outline of the plan is unchanged.

I didn't say based on the picture but looking to the promise THROUGH the picture BY FAITH.

The atonement is always for the ones God loves...both in the OT and NT. right?

Show me the scripture that says this.
The atonement was given because of God love.
For God so loved the WORLD - Sinners.

The nation could not, yet a person could become Jewish and then as a Jew, the atonement was to the WHOLE NATION. right?

Yes the Nation COULD just like Ninivah did. No the symbol of atonement (blood on the door posts) took place BEFORE THEY LEFT. It was done IN Egypt. The egyptians knew what was coming but not all believe it though some did. Gods chosen Nation did also. So how do we know it wasn't just Israel who left Egypt under the grace of the atonement??

Exd 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.

Who were these other uncalled people that dared leave with God elect?

But here is a better question: was every Israelite a believer for whom the atonement was offered up on behalf? They are Gods people right? He called forth that Nation from Egypt or the World, Right? The Nation of Israel is Called Gods firstborn son, is it not??
So then ALL Israel should have been saved and the atonement rendered applicable to every Jew everywhere.

Thanks...now you owe me a coke.

How is that? I have not affirmed what you state. I said the atonement was for a specific group - refering to Israel AFTER God gave them specific instruction - the Law. But this was again, after God called them out of Egypt. God deals with His chosen group here (Israel) JUST as He does the world - sinners. Because IN that chosen Group are unsaved Israelites among the ELECT of whom all of them are CALLED the elect. But we know this elect means purpose and not salvation.

The atonement was for many and for all that He loved. Look...I'm sure you agree that the atonement was a love act by God. Now...did it work? Does God stop loving at some ponit? Or...does God always love His own? Will He seek them out and bring them back? Will God let His sheep go? Does Gods love fail?

OF course God wont allow Israel to go, for they are His first born. Gods love never fails but you are trying to contend a bad example just as Johnp did. Love doesn't desire for its own way, and love is not boastful, and love endures all things. Gods love is GIVEN without condition but that DOES NOT mean we have to accept that Love. Just look at Israel as the example to which scripture says it is to us. Israel - the one whom God loved and called His firstborn, rejects Him! Did His love fail. Not when you understand the purpose of Love. It completed all it was to do on both the sinful world and the redeemed.

I know of no verse to support your view on this one thing.

Then I guess you should go back and read

In all cases?

Yes, James.

so in this case the word world only means believers. humm I wonder if it could mean believers in other places? What ya think Allan?

Again you NEED to read. They WERE NOT believers. The bread was FOR them but they did not believe so could not partake. Either Jesus is wrong or you are, take your pick. So No, it CAN NOT mean believers in other places.

Tell you what, why don't you find me a couple of places the OT where world speaks to or of Gods people alone? If it has an established meaning in the OT the NT will maintain it. Just to help you out, it appears 46 times in the OT but some refer to the planet, the rest refer to the wicked and sinful. Especially since the NT is based on the OT.

What does reconciled mean?

What does World mean as consistantly maintained in scripture?

The picture in the OT saved no one. The faith in the cross is what saved. The OT atonement was for the whole nation. (lev) Did it work?

Their faith was not in the cross because they didn't even know what it was. It was IN the WORK the atonement was to do. They were beleive just as we are. So in answer, Yes it did. Just read Heb 11

Now this time in Christ death, the atonement is stilled applied to His people. His people are the elect chosen by God from all the nations to believe. Did the atonement work, or was this a picture too?

Of course just as it did previously. The animal blood did not save but it was faith in the what was to come regarding that same sacrifice that saved. They looked forward and were saved, we look back and are saved.

And again I say...Jewish means they are IN the nation. right?

Yes, but they are not all saved in that elect nation so chosen by God even though they are atoned for by the High Priest.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Allan.

If God loves all sinners why does His love fail? Love protects and it is kind and if God created people for Hell He would not know why He sends them there because love keeps no record of wrongs. Read all about it in 1 Cor 13:4-8...

This is not an answer: His love did not fail and has never failed. He has provided the way for the Whole world. Answer the points raised please.

Where can one find love in Hell? Show this and I will believe God loves everyone. There will be no relief from suffering, not for a second. A continuous moment of death and torment forever, a never ever ending punishment. The complete God created living nightmare. Now show me how much God loves those people going there please.

No, your personal preference as to how you particularly want to hold to scripture does. This is why any debating with you is pointless from my point view. You beleive something that IS false concerning God therefore I will not debate it and will not continue with you in it.

Does He love those in Hell? No? A change in God? Yes? He loves those He commits to Hell and loves them while roasting them? Show love in Hell. (And He knew before-hand who is going there. Is that love? Explain this love please.)

We say we don't love God so God says He doesn't love us? Is this what you mean? You are in a bind.

It isn't love I don't want to talk about, it is to you (more specifically your theological view) that I am ceasing to address.

It is love you avoid because you have not answered my points but you say you won't. I would say 'can't' wouldn't I?

I Cor 13 for LOVE DOES NOT SEEKS ITS OWN WAY.

Love is not self-seeking you mean. That is what sacrifice is isn't it? Love unselfishly seeking it's own? It's own. But if God allows us to love Him or not does He stop loving us if we choose not? If love permits another, the object of it's love, to say no what should be the response? To contiue in love with that person only is the answer otherwise love isn't love. Tell me where Hell comes into this love please.

It is the Love of God that establishes what I am stating, but Gods love will not force a man to love Him in return.

Love me or go to Hell is cool.

john.

 

[Allan]

in Isa Egypt is called the outcast....and will always be, till God blows the trumpet for them to come to God. In that day...all will believe. Now...while Egypt is still the outcast, what do you feel God means by this when you compare this to the jewish nation as Gods chosen people?

Just for reference, where in Isaiah? Are you refering to this verse.

Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

It doesn't say Egypt is the outcast! It says the outcasts IN THE LAND OF Egypt.

In any case, we see God casting off Israel too.

Cast off - to be despised, loathsome, abhorrent, to reject.


But wait there is more:

Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

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Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it].

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Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal [it]: and they shall return [even] to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
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Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

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Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, [even] a blessing in the midst of the land:

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Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed [be] Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Egypt is not an outcast for one day THEY will even Called Gods people whom He blesses.

 

[johnp.]

No, because the symbolic atonement took place IN Egypt and all those who came out had that atonement applied to them.

Why are you linking the blood on the door-posts with atonement? No one was told to put blood on their door-posts for the forgiveness of sins were they Allan?

Ex 12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

You don't give any scriptural proof that they had the atonement applied to them when they came out of Egypt. Please show me where it says the blood on the doors led to an atonement being applied please.

john.

 

[johnp.]

What does reconciled mean?

I thought that a good question James.

What does reconciled mean Allan please?

john.

 

[webdog]

Because they are a waste and worthless and they are green and round.

The black peas I like, for my own pleasure to like them.

You are saying peas have no health benefit? Do you hate bad health?

You hate the color green? Do you hate grass and trees, too?

You hate round shapes? Do you hate tires? Are black peas round in shape?

 

[webdog]

Not if you was a female webdog.

john.

That's why God is "He"

 

[webdog]

I love college football...(groups of colleges play this game called football).
I do not like Ohio State football...( which is a college that plays the game called football)
I love WVU football...(which is yet another college that plays the game called football)
And as all WVU "eers" I hate PITT so called football!!!!

Understand?

duplicate post

 

[webdog]

I love college football...(groups of colleges play this game called football).
I do not like Ohio State football...( which is a college that plays the game called football)
I love WVU football...(which is yet another college that plays the game called football)
And as all WVU "eers" I hate PITT so called football!!!!

Understand?

Ohio State football and WVU football are the SAME GAME...football (WVU has a football team? ). You said you love football, so you love the game that both schools play.

There is no such thing as loving football, and hating "ohio state football" (whatever that is).

Can God hate sin, but love "ohio state sin"?

 

[johnp.]

Don't forget webdog, people are always shelling green peas so it ain't just James.


john.

 

[Allan]

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

************************
Christ tells others to be as He in His love. notice the word abide..continue. Now Christ is about to share the pure love He has....

and here comes the point....

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

**********************

Now are you really saying this is not talking about Christ death?

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He does not say you are my friends. But you are...IF... you do what I command.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, ...

We were enemies of God, not friends. Christ reconciled that we MAY BE friends.

 

[HankD]

No it's God's failure. He loves us must always stand. Love never fails. Love isn't predicated on response but on a decision taken. Since God loves all men, you say, I fail to see it in connection with Hell. God never changes. If at one point He says He loves a person that love must be eternal. He does not shift.

So say you, but saying it does not make it true and yes, that goes for me as well as you.

God defines what love is not you or I.
God also hates as has been shown in the Scripture:

Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.​

The "workers of iniquity" means just what it says that they according to the Scripture have "worked" at iniquity.
At what point does God "hate" a person? When they reject His Son.

They may even be religious and call Him Lord, Lord but Jesus tells the workers of iniquity to depart from Him in Luke 13:27.

If God never "shifts" what do you make of this?

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

Then...

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.​

This is a far cry from "it was very good".

So the Scriptures say that it "repented God" that He made man and was grieved at His heart that He had made them.​

So was this man's failure or God's that caused Him to destroy the earth with the Deluge?

HankD

 

[webdog]

Don't forget webdog, people are always shelling green peas so it ain't just James.


john.

You and James are making it sound like it's unconditional, but it's not. Why do people hate peas?

 

[johnp.]

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I refer you to: http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/calvin/ci_html/1_17.htm
If you check out section 12 and 13 you will have an answer HankD.

john.

 

[johnp.]

You and James are making it sound like it's unconditional, but it's not. Why do people hate peas?

I think your dedication to peakind admirable webdog. If it is a persecuted veg it is so for a reason with me.

When I came across peas profesionally for the first time I was a silver service waiter, sort of. Dishing peas onto customers plates was a nightmare not help by their profound roundness. Between the fork and spoon one could gather 1/2 pound of carrots or spuds or caulliflower but peas went onto the plate two by two. (They used to go onto the table that way as well. ) They made a fool outta me.

Before that traumatic period I didn't hate peas I just didn't like them. I don't think anyone sets out to hate peas man. I don't think it's a matter of choice. It ain't my fault I don't like them is it? I can't tell my tongue what to like can I?


john.

 

[webdog]

Before that traumatic period I didn't hate peas I just didn't like them. I don't think anyone sets out to hate peas man.

...but this entire pea analogy is being used to show that God hates some men and not others. You even stated "I don't think anyone sets out to hate peas". Do you think God "sets out to hate men" unconditionally?

 

[Allan]

I thought that a good question James.

What does reconciled mean Allan please?

john.

Reconcile means what it always has. It is a word that BOTH sides agree with and it the reason THIS WORD is not in contention.
The word "World" is! It means sinners. The OT consistantly uses it in EVERY circumstance and that same meaning established in the OT is perpetuated in the NT.

You only have a problem with the original intent of the word World if your theology tells the bible what it means rather than the bible dictate your theology.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Allan.

THIS WORD is not in contention.

The only word we can talk about is 'world' and that in isolation to anything that might be relevant?

Since God so loved the world then Jesus died for it. If Jesus died for it then the world is reconciled to God. Not as you lamely told James Christ reconciled that we MAY BE friends. There is no maybe about it. One is either reconciled or one is not. Now if Christ died for all men then all men are reconciled.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, ... We were it says, where's the maybe?

The word "World" is! It means sinners. The OT consistantly uses it in EVERY circumstance and that same meaning established in the OT is perpetuated in the NT.

1 Sam 2:8 ..."For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world.

You only have a problem with the original intent of the word World if your theology tells the bible what it means rather than the bible dictate your theology.

The only real problem I might have is talking to a person who says he knows but doesn't answer questions. A doctor who refuses to use medicine. Where is there love in that please?

john.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

It is my feeling that our list is getting to long...as it seems to always get, each time we go head to head. I would like to slow this down by making smaller post on a subject.

On the atonement...

We started in the NT...then back to Lev...now we are in Egypt, looking at if God planned salvation for all mankind. Some how we got to the atonement. Was it for all man..or for the elect only. This lead us to Egypt.

1st lets look at the Ark of Noah, a type of Christ. 1 Peter 3:20 and 21 is clear that this is the atonement. A good picture of the judgmental flood in connection with the atoning death and justifying resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact this is the 1st place you will find the word atonement in the Bible.

The design of the Ark was given to Noah by who? By God. This was Gods plan and design.

Now...was the ark large enough to hold all who were living on the earth at that time?

 

[johnp.]

...but this entire pea analogy is being used to show that God hates some men and not others.

Oh! was it, I thought we were talking about peas.

You even stated "I don't think anyone sets out to hate peas".

That's right, or at least it was when I said it. Are you telling me that some people set out to hate them? Was it ever said that peas were hated without reason?

Do you think God "sets out to hate men" unconditionally?

I don't know what you mean by unconditionally webdog. For no reason do you mean? No I don't believe that. Regardless of their foreseen acts? Yes I do believe that. Unconditional as in the way He loves the elect, yes.

john.