The "World"

[HankD]

Hello HankD,

I notice that you posted a few verses that you feel carry the idea that the word "world" means all of mankind. As to the OP, does the "world" always mean all of mankind?

For the most part, yes. There may be an exception or two (or more) but for the most part, yes.

I would say however that "world" has differing nuances or focus(es) which can be gathered from the context:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.​

In John 3:16 the focus is the "whosoevers" while in 1 John 2:15-16 the focus is that which motivates the "whosoevers".​

RE:Failure of agape love. It is our failure not God's.
He has provided all that He deems necessary to allow anyone in the world to walk through the door of heaven.​

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

HankD​

 

[johnp.]

Hello MB.

Were you a sheep before you were saved?

No. ...the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. Rom 4:17. Was Jesus slain before the foundation of the Earth?

We simply are not lost sheep before Salvation. Before Salvation we have no faith in Christ and we do not belong to Him until we do.

If you want the parable can be saying that all Christians will be stopped from escaping that's cool.

john.

 

[MB]

Hi Jarthur;

Allan,

Please share how you think this harms Calvinism? I would see it as great support. The blood of the atonement was given for only Gods people, and not the whole world.

Then Christ came to save those who didn't need saving. Do you really believe that God came to save the saved?

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Those who do not believe are the lost. A lost sheep and a lost soul are two different things. You do not belong to God until your saved.
MB

 

[johnp.]

Hello HankD.

RE:Failure of agape love. It is our failure not God's.

No it's God's failure. He loves us must always stand. Love never fails. Love isn't predicated on response but on a decision taken. Since God loves all men, you say, I fail to see it in connection with Hell. God never changes. If at one point He says He loves a person that love must be eternal. He does not shift.

agape? Love is love and it is defined in 1 Cor 13. All love is covered by 1 Cor 13.

He has provided all that He deems necessary to allow anyone in the world to walk through the door of heaven.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

john.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Jarthur;


Then Christ came to save those who didn't need saving. Do you really believe that God came to save the saved?

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Those who do not believe are the lost. A lost sheep and a lost soul are two different things. You do not belong to God until your saved.
MB

Christ came TO die. This was the finished work of His salvation plan. And what did He say at the ponit of His death? IT IS FINISHED!!
I think that about seals it. Unless you would like to add something to His work.

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)

Again...what happened in the OT was only a picture of what Christ would do. The OT atonement saved no one. This is the point made both in Hebrews and Romans.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello HankD,

Being that you agree that the word world does not always mean all of mankind, would you not also agree that though there are some passages that are clear to the meaning, there are also passages that can be read other ways other then how you want to limit them?

If you remove your docrine slant, and take into account the full Word of God, as we all should, it is my feeling you will take on a proper meaning of the world in context.

So let me ask you....

Can God love the world and yet hate men or even whole nations of people?

 

[Allan]

Yes...I believe this is what I said. The whole nation

No, you said "The atonement was to His people and His people only" Regarding the atonment. So when the atonement was offered up for ALL of Israel then even those who did not place faith in the blood shed was saved to, in your rendering. But, I know you beleive that the atonement was only made for those who beleive, so this would disqualify what God said regarding the atonement for ALL of Israel. It was made for ALL of them but as both you and I agree Only those who placed faith in it was atoned for.

As I stated. Yet this was not the other nations, now was it? Just appied to His people...His nation.

Actaully, the other nation COULD have come into the Jewish faith but chose not to. There were some of those other nation who did and that is why they are considered as a part of Gods people though they are not of Israel. Not all Israel is OF Israel.

Indeed..as I have stated. What about Egypt? Was the atonement for Egypt?

What about it? We are talking about Gods elect people NOT ALL of whom are saved!

We are not talking about election for purpose James. Egypt could have become part of the Jewish Nation if it so desired just as all the nations which saw, heard or were conquered by the Jews.

But I will say this to reduce the argument. Atonement is for a specific group just like it was for ALL of Israel even though Not all Israel were beleivers. So then to is the Atonement for the 'World' by Christ Jesus is for the World though not all in the World will be believers.

Verse please.

I'm not going to spoon feed you James. I have quoted the verses repeatedly, just go back and read.

Where as the OT atonement was only a picture, Christ work was the real thing. It was finished after the cross.

No doubt! But not all will beleive in the atoning work Christ made for the WHOLE WORLD. World means Sinners, in case you forgot.

So now you want to renege on what you said about John 6?

Read closer James. I never said THEY who Christ was speaking WERE BELEIVERS. They were ALL Sinners that did not believe just as Jesus told them they were. What I was saying also is that Jesus told them the BREAD of LIFE is FOR THEM but they (as Jesus pointed out) did not believe. One must believe in order to partake as Jesus discribes later in eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

I believe you speak of 2 cor 5. Lets look at the verses. One line at a time in order.

I did that, you just didn't like what scripture stated in its plain rendering.

I guess we need a understanding of rreconciled before we get into it. What do you feel it means?

Let me say this, no matter what it means it was done on behalf of the WORLD. I know what reconciling means James but when you place that in cojunction to the World (sinful man) it still does not change. It may make you have to revisit a point or two theologically but it is consistant with the whole counsil of God in the matter. World means ALL Sinners.

So then you would agree the atonement is applied to ALL Gods people, but in the OT is a picture of the NT where it too is applied to ALL Gods people..AND...snip

Of course the atonement is APPLIED to Gods people (Those who will believe) but it was MADE for the WORLD - ALL sinners.

snip...it is understood that the OT picture never did work.....and.....it is also understood that the NT worked. In both cases it was not applied to Egypt...a picture of the world in the OT. right?

Now you contradict yourself James.
You stated earlier:

In fact, the saving power of the OT was not in the blood seen at that moment, but in the blood to come on the cross. So the saving power found in the OT is nothing other then the faith placed in the spotless Lamb of the NT.

So which is it, did the OT picture toward the Lamb save based on the Lamb of God, or did in NEVER work? Both are saved "by grace through faith" James.

Agian with Egypt? Israel was called OUT of Egypt just was we are called out of the world. The work was done while they were IN Egypt not After. You keep going back to Egypt but you forget Israel (beleivers) were Called OUT OF Egypt (world) but it was in Egypt the symbol of Atonement was used on the door posts.
Egypt COULD have place that atoning lambs blood upon their door posts but they did not. They as a whole (like the world as whole) did not beleive and was left in their unbelief to the judgment.

 

[MB]

Christ came TO die.

Not just to die but, for a reason. That reason was to save the lost. Not the lost sheep but sinners who did not believe. Lost sheep are brought back into the fold. They are already saved and sealed. You were born a sinner just like everyman who ever lived and were not God's sheep.

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)

Even His friends weren't saved until He paid the atonement. The love of Christ is greater than this. He died to save His enemies.

Again...what happened in the OT was only a picture of what Christ would do. The OT atonement saved no one. This is the point made both in Hebrews and Romans.

I don't disagree with that at all. For this very reason the disciples were not saved until after Christ had made the way for them to be saved by dying on the cross.
MB

 

[Allan]

Christ came TO die. This was the finished work of His salvation plan. And what did He say at the ponit of His death? IT IS FINISHED!!
I think that about seals it

Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)

Again...what happened in the OT was only a picture of what Christ would do. The OT atonement saved no one. This is the point made both in Hebrews and Romans.

James you left context... Greater love hath NO MAN than this...
But Christ, while we were Yet sinners died...
A sinner is NOT a friend of God. A FRIEND of the World is an ENEMY of God.

Jesus was setting the stage for greatness of His work which Goes Beyond what a MAN would do.

Yes it is the point made in Hebrews and Romans. The world is always the sinners and Christ died for us but not ONLY us but for the sins of the Whole World.

 

[Allan]

Hello HankD,

I notice that you posted a few verses that you feel carry the idea that the word "world" means all of mankind. As to the OP, does the "world" always mean all of mankind?

No James, it means ALL Sinners.

 

[Allan]

If God loves all sinners why does His love fail? Love protects and it is kind and if God created people for Hell He would not know why He sends them there because love keeps no record of wrongs. Read all about it in 1 Cor 13:4-8...

His love did not fail and has never failed. He has provided the way for the Whole world.

Love itself is defining the word 'world' in this verse.

No, your personal preference as to how you particularly want to hold to scripture does. This is why any debating with you is pointless from my point view. You beleive something that IS false concerning God therefore I will not debate it and will not continue with you in it.

You don't want to talk about love because love destroys the world in this verse, for you. If God loves all men where does this love go when men refuse Him? This must be resolved by you or you will stay with a false doctrine.

It isn't love I don't want to talk about, it is to you (more specifically your theological view) that I am ceasing to address.

It is the Love of God that establishes what I am stating, but Gods love will not force a man to love Him in return. Contrary to you, who holds that it is God who literally makes a man do the vilest of sin or the holiest of acts. In you veiw their is no love according I Cor 13 for LOVE DOES NOT SEEKS ITS OWN WAY. That is contrary to your view of God. Look at the whole of the passage discribing Love and not your pet peices.

 

[webdog]

when I say I hate peas, I mean I hate peas.

When I say I love football, but I do not like Ohio State football....is that a lie? No. Both statements are true.

God loves the world....

Now...going by Romans 9...does God also hate?

Why do you hate peas?

 

[webdog]

When I say I love football, but I do not like Ohio State football....is that a lie? No. Both statements are true.

These are not the same things. Ohio State is a team. Football is a game. You are trying to say they are one in the same thing.

If you were to say I hate football, but I like Ohio State's football team, that would foolish.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

No, you said "The atonement was to His people and His people only" Regarding the atonment.

You mean you do not think that the Jewish nation of the OT and Gods people of the OT are one and the same?

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom He has chosen as His own inheritance" (Psalm 33:12)

Actaully, the other nation COULD have come into the Jewish faith but chose not to. There were some of those other nation who did and that is why they are considered as a part of Gods people though they are not of Israel. Not all Israel is OF Israel.

Indeed and then they that came would be Jewish, which means the atonement would apply to them. right? How about the whole nation of Egypt?? No word on them yet.

What about it? We are talking about Gods elect people NOT ALL of whom are saved!

No..none of them were saved based on the picture. Yet the outline of the plan is unchanged. The atonement is always for the ones God loves...both in the OT and NT. right?

We are not talking about election for purpose James. Egypt could have become part of the Jewish Nation if it so desired just as all the nations which saw, heard or were conquered by the Jews.

The nation could not, yet a person could become Jewish and then as a Jew, the atonement was to the WHOLE NATION. right?

But I will say this to reduce the argument. Atonement is for a specific group just like it was for ALL of Israel even though Not all Israel were beleivers.

Thanks...now you owe me a coke.

So then to is the Atonement for the 'World' by Christ Jesus is for the World though not all in the World will be believers.

The atonement was for many and for all that He loved. Look...I'm sure you agree that the atonement was a love act by God. Now...did it work? Does God stop loving at some ponit? Or...does God always love His own? Will He seek them out and bring them back? Will God let His sheep go? Does Gods love fail?

I'm not going to spoon feed you James. I have quoted the verses repeatedly, just go back and read.

I know of no verse to support your view on this one thing.

No doubt! But not all will beleive in the atoning work Christ made for the WHOLE WORLD. World means Sinners, in case you forgot.

In all cases?

Read closer James. I never said THEY who Christ was speaking WERE BELEIVERS. They were ALL Sinners that did not believe just as Jesus told them they were. What I was saying also is that Jesus told them the BREAD of LIFE is FOR THEM but they (as Jesus pointed out) did not believe. One must believe in order to partake as Jesus discribes later in eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

so in this case the word world only means believers. humm I wonder if it could mean believers in other places? What ya think Allan?

I did that, you just didn't like what scripture stated in its plain rendering.

What does reconciled mean?

So which is it, did the OT picture toward the Lamb save based on the Lamb of God, or did in NEVER work? Both are saved "by grace through faith" James.

The picture in the OT saved no one. The faith in the cross is what saved. The OT atonement was for the whole nation. (lev) Did it work?

Heb 10:11-12
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Now this time in Christ death, the atonement is stilled applied to His people. His people are the elect chosen by God from all the nations to believe. Did the atonement work, or was this a picture too?

Hebrews 9:9 ...a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience...

9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Agian with Egypt? Israel was called OUT of Egypt just was we are called out of the world. The work was done while they were IN Egypt not After. You keep going back to Egypt but you forget Israel (beleivers) were Called OUT OF Egypt (world) but it was in Egypt the symbol of Atonement was used on the door posts.
Egypt COULD have place that atoning lambs blood upon their door posts but they did not. They as a whole (like the world as whole) did not beleive and was left in their unbelief to the judgment.

And again I say...Jewish means they are IN the nation. right?

Its pretty clear.

In Christ..James

 

[johnp.]

If you were to say I hate football, but I like Ohio State's football team, that would foolish.

Not if you was a female webdog.

john.

 

[Jarthur001]

MB,

Not just to die but, for a reason. That reason was to save the lost. Not the lost sheep but sinners who did not believe. Lost sheep are brought back into the fold. They are already saved and sealed. You were born a sinner just like everyman who ever lived and were not God's sheep.

Parts of this I agree with. The only reason was not just to die, but that was the crowning moment...as it is said...when he was lifted up. Christ would have done little, if He had not died for the sins of His people in the end.

Even His friends weren't saved until He paid the atonement. The love of Christ is greater than this. He died to save His enemies.

Are you saying this to me, or God? I only posted a verse. The atonement was a love act for His bride. Now to show you how much you dirty the pure love of God, let me ask you. If you are married, do you love all ladies as you do your wife? If you told other ladies you loved them as much as your wife, how special is your love for your wife?

 

[Jarthur001]

James you left context... Greater love hath NO MAN than this...
But Christ, while we were Yet sinners died...
A sinner is NOT a friend of God. A FRIEND of the World is an ENEMY of God.

Jesus was setting the stage for greatness of His work which Goes Beyond what a MAN would do.

Yes it is the point made in Hebrews and Romans. The world is always the sinners and Christ died for us but not ONLY us but for the sins of the Whole World.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

************************
Christ tells others to be as He in His love. notice the word abide..continue. Now Christ is about to share the pure love He has....

and here comes the point....

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

**********************

Now are you really saying this is not talking about Christ death?

 

[Jarthur001]

No James, it means ALL Sinners.

in Isa Egypt is called the outcast....and will always be, till God blows the trumpet for them to come to God. In that day...all will believe. Now...while Egypt is still the outcast, what do you feel God means by this when you compare this to the jewish nation as Gods chosen people?

 

[Jarthur001]

Why do you hate peas?

Because they are a waste and worthless and they are green and round.

The black peas I like, for my own pleasure to like them.

 

[Jarthur001]

These are not the same things. Ohio State is a team. Football is a game. You are trying to say they are one in the same thing.

If you were to say I hate football, but I like Ohio State's football team, that would foolish.

I love college football...(groups of colleges play this game called football).
I do not like Ohio State football...( which is a college that plays the game called football)
I love WVU football...(which is yet another college that plays the game called football)
And as all WVU "eers" I hate PITT so called football!!!!

Understand?