Theodicy

[Luke2427]

You still haven't answered the question about how something (Satan's evil intent) came from nothing (the absence of good). When you do that, I'll proceed...

I don't have to because I said no such silly thing.

I did not say that evil is SOMETHING that came from nothing.

I said evil is NOTHING much the same as dark is nothing and cold is nothing and dry is nothing and a MILLION other things are actually NOTHING but the absence of other things.

Can nothing cause something to happen to something? Absolutely.

Darkness can cause a school bus full of elementary age children to fly off a cliff to their terrible deaths.

Is darkness something? Nope. It is actually NOTHING. It is just a word we use to describe the ABSENCE of light.

Can cold cause horrible things? Sure. But cold is not actually something.

It has no mass, no space, etc... It is not energy, it is not thought, it is not emotion, it has no personality. It is simply the absence of heat.

But it causes all kinds of HORRIBLE things to all kinds of things that are ACTUAL things- crops, people, etc...

Evil can cause all kinds of horrible things- but is evil an actual thing? No. It is the absence of good.

That is simple enough for a child to understand.

If you cannot understand it, it is not because you lack the intellect- it is because you lack the objectivity.

 

[Van]

Is evil the absense of good. I doubt it.

God is good, and so everything God does has a "good" side. Seen from His perspective I think everything He does is good. But, like being in the path of a tornado, the result on something "good" in that it is part of God's creation, can be seen as an evil wind. So rather than evil being the absense of something good, I think evil is what is adverse to expectations and desires. So something could be good from my perspective, but bad from another perspective. Say I am a soldier and pop up and fire a shot, then quickly duck back down. All good from my view, I did my job, shared the risk, operated in accord with government authority, and so forth. And I was not shot and am still alive to pop up again. All good from my perspective. But that bullet found a mark and killed someone's little boy, someone's brother, someone's daddy. So evil depends upon a point of view.

Consider a Christian who lays down his life for the Lord. Good or Evil?

 

[Luke2427]

Is evil the absense of good. I doubt it.

God is good, and so everything God does has a "good" side. Seen from His perspective I think everything He does is good. But, like being in the path of a tornado, the result on something "good" in that it is part of God's creation, can be seen as an evil wind. So rather than evil being the absense of something good, I think evil is what is adverse to expectations and desires. So something could be good from my perspective, but bad from another perspective. Say I am a soldier and pop up and fire a shot, then quickly duck back down. All good from my view, I did my job, shared the risk, operated in accord with government authority, and so forth. And I was not shot and am still alive to pop up again. All good from my perspective. But that bullet found a mark and killed someone's little boy, someone's brother, someone's daddy. So evil depends upon a point of view.

Consider a Christian who lays down his life for the Lord. Good or Evil?

I don't think you have a grasp on my point.

Deeds are not evil in and of themselves.

It is that which comes out of a man that defiles him according to our Lord.

A deed is only good or evil based upon the motive of the one doing it.

This is not what the OP is about.

The OP is not about whether or not certain deeds are evil.

It is about what evil is and where it came from.

Look up Augustine's theodicy.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't have to because I said no such silly thing.

I did not say that evil is SOMETHING that came from nothing.

I said evil is NOTHING much the same as dark is nothing and cold is nothing and dry is nothing and a MILLION other things are actually NOTHING but the absence of other things.

But the intent to do evil (i.e. Satan's desire to be like God) IS SOMETHING and the question I asked you is how it originated, so how does your explanation answer that question?

 

[Van]

The problem of Theodicy is not a problem at all, it is a joke. When were the questions first concocted? Ancient Greek culture, right? Designed to demonstrate that the Greek Gods were false gods, right.

And then some folks decided to apply those questions to the God of the Bible. But they did not work because the God of the Bible does not fit the questions.

Is God all powerful according to the Bible? Yes

Is God always "good" to everyone? No. All things work together for good for those who love God, those who are called according to His purpose. God brings calamity. So to hide this error in the assumptions, the question will be framed as God is all loving.

Here is a typical formulation:

"One example among many of a formulation of the problem of evil is often attributed to Epicurus[9] and may be schematized as follows:

1. If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist."

See the "perfectly good God" premise does not define "good" as in "good" from God's perspective. It puts man in judgment of God and says a perfectly good God would not allow evil from my perspective to befall me. An unbiblical premise.

 

[Van]

Luke47, you demonstrated you have no idea what I said. Did I say evil was a deed? Nope. You effort to say "evil"does not exist, and therefore God does is lame in my view.

 

[Luke2427]

The problem of Theodicy is not a problem at all, it is a joke. When were the questions first concocted? Ancient Greek culture, right? Designed to demonstrate that the Greek Gods were false gods, right.

And then some folks decided to apply those questions to the God of the Bible. But they did not work because the God of the Bible does not fit the questions.

Is God all powerful according to the Bible? Yes

Is God always "good" to everyone? No. All things work together for good for those who love God, those who are called according to His purpose. God brings calamity. So to hide this error in the assumptions, the question will be framed as God is all loving.

Here is a typical formulation:

"One example among many of a formulation of the problem of evil is often attributed to Epicurus[9] and may be schematized as follows:

1. If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist."

See the "perfectly good God" premise does not define "good" as in "good" from God's perspective. It puts man in judgment of God and says a perfectly good God would not allow evil from my perspective to befall me. An unbiblical premise.

This thread is about theodicy. If you feel it is a joke and not worth discussing please feel free to exercise your right to not discuss it.

Of course respected theologians of all stripes through the ages have thought it was worthwhile discussing. But perhaps you are smarter than all of them.

This is an epidemic our contemporary culture faces. EVERYBODY who can quote John 3:16 is smarter than all the theologians who ever lived combined.

 

[Luke2427]

But the intent to do evil (i.e. Satan's desire to be like God) IS SOMETHING and the question I asked you is how it originated, so how does your explanation answer that question?

Evil is nothing that causes things.

Intent is one of those things.

Darkness is nothing that causes things.

The school bus anecdote above is one of limitless examples that could be given.

 

[Benjamin]

What about the opposite? What is good, is it also nothing? God is Only Good, is that simply a word we use to describe the absence of evil? Will/do you apply your reasoning to the opposite of evil regarding the “Omnibenevolent Nature of God” that it has no mass, no space, is not energy, is not thought, emotion and has no personality? Is the characteristic of Divine Good an actual thing? Or is it actually nothing? Can you believe in nothing? Is belief a thing?

What about light? Is it simply the absence of darkness? Oh wait! I forgot I was talking to a Calvinist; the light is not real unless God, in His Goodness, which is really nothing, pre-selected an individual to see that light, which is really only the absence of darkness.

Is my chair real, or is it just a group of tiny….nevermind….

 

[Van]

Typical Response

This thread is about theodicy. If you feel it is a joke and not worth discussing please feel free to exercise your right to not discuss it.

Of course respected theologians of all stripes through the ages have thought it was worthwhile discussing. But perhaps you are smarter than all of them.

This is an epidemic our contemporary culture faces. EVERYBODY who can quote John 3:16 is smarter than all the theologians who ever lived combined.

Rather than address my alternate view, which is logically sound, you simply disparage me personally. Trademark of an empty suit.

 

[Skandelon]

Evil is nothing that causes things.

So then nothing cause Satan's intent, right?

If evil itself didn't cause the evil intent then what did, Luke?

 

[Winman]

The only problem with Luke's view is that it is unscriptural.

2 Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Deeds can indeed be evil, the scriptures say so. If someone goes around spreading false doctrine, that is an evil deed.

Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The reason men do not come to Christ and get saved is because they love to do evil.

Evil is not nothing. Evil is rebellion and contention against God. It is very active.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Satan isn't sitting around doing nothing, he is actively fighting God.

 

[Benjamin]

See the "perfectly good God" premise does not define "good" as in "good" from God's perspective. It puts man in judgment of God and says a perfectly good God would not allow evil from my perspective to befall me. An unbiblical premise.

The Omnibenevolent Nature of God goes to show "His" Righteous Judgment over His creatures. Very biblical: Deut 32:4.

 

[Luke2427]

What about the opposite? What is good, is it also nothing? God is Only Good, is that simply a word we use to describe the absence of evil? Will/do you apply your reasoning to the opposite of evil regarding the “Omnibenevolent Nature of God” that it has no mass, no space, is not energy, is not thought, emotion and has no personality? Is the characteristic of Divine Good an actual thing? Or is it actually nothing? Can you believe in nothing? Is belief a thing?

What about light? Is it simply the absence of darkness? Oh wait! I forgot I was talking to a Calvinist; the light is not real unless God, in His Goodness, which is really nothing, pre-selected an individual to see that light, which is really only the absence of darkness.

Is my chair real, or is it just a group of tiny….nevermind….

Yes, light and good are things.

 

[Luke2427]

The only problem with Luke's view is that it is unscriptural.

2 Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Deeds can indeed be evil, the scriptures say so. If someone goes around spreading false doctrine, that is an evil deed.

Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The reason men do not come to Christ and get saved is because they love to do evil.

Evil is not nothing. Evil is rebellion and contention against God. It is very active.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Satan isn't sitting around doing nothing, he is actively fighting God.

A deed can be evil or good- but it is not good or evil in itself.

It is MADE good or evil by the motive of the one doing it.

The Lord taught this clearly. One example is when he said, "It is that which comes out of a man that defiles him."

 

[Luke2427]

So then nothing cause Satan's intent, right?

If evil itself didn't cause the evil intent then what did, Luke?

Evil itself did.

And what is evil?

The absence of good.

What caused the school bus of children to drive off the cliff?

Darkness.

And what is darkness?

The absence of light.

 

[Skandelon]

It is MADE good or evil by the motive of the one doing it.

So who originated the evil motive in Satan? Remember that pesky little question?

 

[Skandelon]

Evil itself did.

And what is evil?

The absence of good.

So, if evil is mere the absence of something, then it is NOTHING, thus you have just said, "Nothing originated the intent."

How can NOTHING cause SOMETHING?

 

[Luke2427]

So who originated the evil motive in Satan? Remember that pesky little question?

God is the ultimate or remote cause of it. But he causes it not by his ACTIVE agency but by the very OPPOSITE of active agency- by removing his goodness.

Evil is the absence of good.

 

[Luke2427]

So, if evil is mere the absence of something, then it is NOTHING, thus you have just said, "Nothing originated the intent."

How can NOTHING cause SOMETHING?

The same way that darkness causes wrecks and carnage while being nothing itself.

The same way that cold causes frostbite and hypothermia and death while being nothing in and of itself.

The same way the dryness causes dehydration and death of ALL that lives while being nothing in and of itself but the absence of moisture.

The same way ignorance causes heresy, prejudice and untold suffering while being nothing in and of itself but the absence of knowledge and understanding.

The same way death causes unspeakable sorrow while being nothing in and of itself but the absence of life.

I could go on and on.