There is none who seeks for God

[Van]

Hi JonShaff, being a fundamentalist, I believe scripture means what it says, some Lost Persons do seek God. To say they are not really seeking God is to make scripture to no effect.

Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches they had "some" real knowledge and understanding, for they were in the process of entering the kingdom. The biblical truth is the some of the lost seek God some of the time.

However, I agree completely with your post #19.

 

[Dave G]

Hi JonShaff, being a fundamentalist, I believe scripture means what it says, some Lost Persons do seek God. To say they are not really seeking God is to make scripture to no effect.

Tell me your thoughts on this passage, if you will, Van:

" But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." ( Romans 10:19-21 ).

 

[Van]

Hi Dave, you propose a hard row to hoe, if you plan on presenting random passages, and then asking for my thoughts. I provided multiple passages that support the doctrine that lost unregenerate people do at times seek God, such as Romans 9:16 and Matthew 23:13. Certainly scripture contains passages where people go against God. The idea here, Romans 10 and 11 is that Gentiles who were not descendants of Abraham would provoke some of the Jews to accept Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 3:11 makes this statement and some read this as saying "there is none who seeks for God at any time." However the intended contextual message might be "there is none who seeks for God all the time, or when they are going against God by sinning."

Contextually, since Paul is saying "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3"23) our third choice is most likely the inspired message.

I see now! For example, Paul could have meant no one seeks God on Tuesdays when there is a blood moon! PAUL GIVES US THE BASIC IDEA, THEN WE SPECULATE LIKE YOU ARE DOING.

 

[Van]

Hi Iconoclast, the idea is that no one seeks God when they are going against God by sinning. But at other times, some do seek God, such as those who will in Romans 9:16 and those in the process of entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13.

 

[Dave G]

Hi Dave, you propose a hard row to hoe, if you plan on presenting random passages, and then asking for my thoughts.

Van,

What I'm doing is asking you how the passage I listed fits into men seeking God, and finding Him.
If you see unbelieving men seeking God and actually finding Him, I'd like to know your thoughts on passages that I think contradict this idea.

Here's a few more:

Matthew 11:27,
Luke 10:22,
John 14:21.
Isaiah 45:15,
Isaiah 64:7,
Psalms 104:29.

 

[Dave G]

I provided multiple passages that support the doctrine that lost unregenerate people do at times seek God, such as Romans 9:16 and Matthew 23:13.

Romans 9:16 states that salvation is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
The context is defined further up in the passage, with the subject being, " the children of God" from verse 8.
As the chapter goes on, being a child of God is declared to be by God's mercy and compassion...and that the purpose of God according to election ( choosing) might stand.


Matthew 23:13 is Jesus telling the religious Pharisees that, not only do they seek to shut the doors of Heaven to men, they also hinder those who are going in.



As I see it, there is nothing in either passage to support the idea that unbelievers seek God in any way.

 

[Van]

Hi Dave, I am sure many people who study Romans 9:16 will see people seeking salvation. Matthew 23:13 says men were in the process of entering therefore seeking God. And you say there is nothing to show unbelievers, rather than show lost individuals seeking God. Nuff said

 

[Van]

Matthew 11:27, The inspired Testaments reveal the Son
Luke 10:22, Ditto
John 14:21. Yes Christ manifests Himself to those He has saved, but He is also the Light of the world.
Isaiah 45:15, Ditto
Isaiah 64:7, Applicable to those at that time, not to all people all of the time.
Psalms 104:29. Yes many die in unbelief, but not everyone.

 

[agedman]

There is an eternal difference between humankind “seeking God” By human means, and salvation under God’s terms.

The reason for “repentance” in Acts 17 was because humankind seek God on their own terms and under devices of their own construction, having turned away from the truth.

This is consistently shown valid throughout the Scriptures. Modern example is the typical assembly who seek on their terms by conforming to worldly presentations of worship.

 

[Van]

So although scripture says they were seeking God, they were not really seeking God? Matthew 23:13 blows that deflection out of the water. They were seeking God effectively because they were in the process of entering the kingdom. Natural men, unregenerate men of flesh can hear and understand to spiritual "milk" the fundamentals of the gospel.

 

[Dave G]

So although scripture says they were seeking God, they were not really seeking God? Matthew 23:13 blows that deflection out of the water. They were seeking God effectively because they were in the process of entering the kingdom. Natural men, unregenerate men of flesh can hear and understand to spiritual "milk" the fundamentals of the gospel.

Van,

I think if you look carefully, you will see that the people in the Bible that were seeking God, had already had Him manifested to them first.
There are plenty of places in God's word where men seek Him...
The problem is, there is none that seek Him ( Psalms 10:4, Psalms 53:2-3, Romans 3:10-12 ).

So, how is it that a man seeks God?

Psalms 65:4.

 

[Van]

Hi Dave,

To repeat, all men sin, and none seek God when they are sinning. Nowhere in scripture does it say fallen unregenerate people never seek God at any time. Yes, God must, in some way reveal Himself to people in order for them to seek Him. But that is not the same as saying they are incapable of seeking God unless they have been altered with "irresistible grace." That assertion has no support anywhere in scripture.

Here is the bottom line, I have referenced multiple verses that show fallen men seeking God at some time. Thus your interpretation of Romans 3:11 creates the need to nullify many other verses. In my opinion, that is no way to interpret scripture. Matthew 23:13 has fallen men seeking God in that they were in the process of entering the kingdom. Romans 9:16 refers to people who will to be saved and others who do works to be saved, again showing some fallen people do seek God some of the time.

It is pointless to debate this. No one holding your views from antiquity can say they are mistaken.

 

[Dave G]

To repeat, all men sin, and none seek God when they are sinning.

I agree.

Since all men sin continually ( i.e. unable to stop, Job 15:14, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalms 58:3, Psalms 14:3, Psalms 51:5, Romans 1:29-32, Romans 3:9-18, Proverbs 20:9 ), then none seek God in all their ways.
To say that mankind does not seek God when they are sinning, is to say that man can stop sinning, wouldn't you agree?
He cannot.

Mankind does not have the capacity to stop sinning, without God doing it for him ( Genesis 20:6, Galatians 5:16. ).
Therefore, there is no such thing as a man who seeks God, just as the Scriptures say.

All men sin...and no man can stop sinning.
No man seeks God, because sin gets in the way ( John 3:19-20 ).

Nowhere in scripture does it say fallen unregenerate people never seek God at any time.

Yes, there is.

Romans 3:10-18.
Psalms 14:1-3.
Psalms 53:1-3.
Romans 8:5-8.
Genesis 6:5.

IMO, you just have to put together the pieces.

The wicked are those who are not saved.
The righteous are those who have had their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Read the Psalms and Proverbs, and work out the details...who are the righteous, and who are the wicked?
Who seeks God, and who does not?

Believers seek God, and unbelievers do not.

 

[Dave G]

But that is not the same as saying they are incapable of seeking God unless they have been altered with "irresistible grace." That assertion has no support anywhere in scripture.

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

Without faith, mankind cannot please God, does not believe God and does not seek Him.
Who has real, biblical faith?

" Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." ( Jude 1:3 )

How does one get faith?

Galatians 5:22-23. <---- By the Spirit of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9. <----- As a gift.
Hebrews 12:2 <---- One that is authored and finished by Christ.

Here is the bottom line, I have referenced multiple verses that show fallen men seeking God at some time. Thus your interpretation of Romans 3:11 creates the need to nullify many other verses. In my opinion, that is no way to interpret scripture. Matthew 23:13 has fallen men seeking God in that they were in the process of entering the kingdom. Romans 9:16 refers to people who will to be saved and others who do works to be saved, again showing some fallen people do seek God some of the time.

No fallen man truly seeks the real God at any time.
All are idolaters and seek their own way.

Many men will to be saved...not all men who want to be saved, will be ( Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:24 ).
The ones who think that they know God and do not, make a show of seeking God, but they fail to find Him because they are unable to seek Him with all their heart.
Those that do, God is "found of them" who did not seek Him to begin with ( Romans 10:20 ).

It's a biblical principle...God confounds the will and wisdom of men, by seeking those who do not seek after Him: and He reveals Himself to them.
Abraham did not seek God first...
Neither did Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Samuel, or any of God's other children.

He does the seeking, and He does the finding.

This is my final reply to you in this thread, sir.
May God bless you abundantly in all things.

 

[Van]

You say the men who were entering the kingdom were sinning? I beg to differ. The premise that no one ever is not sinning has no support in scripture.

You mentioned Psalms 14. Well lets look at verse 5 and 6 where some people seek God as a refuge.

Of course those that seek God believe God exists. But the lost, unsaved seek God. Some by works, some by faith.

The "gift of faith" prior to salvation is a fiction with no support in scripture. You cited Ephesians 2:8-9 but the gift in view is salvation, not faith. Again, why would God credit our faith as righteousness, if it was God given faith? It is nonsense.

I see you mentioned Genesis 6:5 but omitted the next few verses, down to verse 8.

You mentioned Galatians 5:22-23, but that is after a person is saved and indwelt. So either you didn't think about your argument, or you are offering verses that offer no support.

In any event, it is pointless to continue, you are reposting assertions (no one seeks God) and ignoring the rebuttal - Matthew 23:13.

If a person enters a room through a door, he first passes through the door and then enters the room. So since we are chosen through faith in the truth, we had faith before we were chosen. And that precludes the "gift of faith" unless you argue the absurdity it is given to the unchosen.

 

[agedman]

A soft revisit of Matthew 23:13

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
​

There are two groups that are in this passage.

One group is the scribes and Pharisees, and the other are those entering the kingdom.

The first group is making attempts at hindering the second.

Because the phrase states the second group “are entering in” the are not “seeking God, but are the redeemed who already posses God.

Just as in this day, there are both human enticings and lusts that distract and detract as the believer walk the narrow way, so the statement is valid.

The second group are not “seeking” God, redemption, heaven, ... but have it, already.

Van, to use Matthew 23:13 in attempting to support heathen “seek God” in other than idolatry, is a failed effort.

 

[Van]

The men were entering but they were blocked. Because the were entering, they were seeking God, because they were blocked they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace." The verse is a twofer,
they had sufficient spiritual ability to be entering and they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace."

 

[agedman]

The men were entering but they were blocked. Because the were entering, they were seeking God, because they were blocked they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace." The verse is a twofer,
they had sufficient spiritual ability to be entering and they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace."

Van, “are entering” is not the same as seeking to enter.

Folks who “are entering” are believers.

Do you recall the lessons concerning the door and the sheep?

Only sheep enter and are welcomed.

You’re staking your thinking by attempting to use a verse that can’t be supportive.

The heathen were not “seeking” God, in contrast to believers who are the adopted children and who “are entering.”

Btw, they believers are never blocked from entering heaven.

The enemies of the children of God certainly make all efforts to hinder, distract, and destroy (as a little fox or roaring lion), but the believers “are entering.”

 

[HankD]

From the very beginning men have "sought" God.

There are however two ways to seek God. The way which He approves, the way He does not.

From the very beginning? Yes.

e.g. Cain and Abel.

To this very day it continues with billions who should rename their "seeking" as "placating".