There is none who seeks for God

[Martin Marprelate]

The men were entering but they were blocked. Because the were entering, they were seeking God, because they were blocked they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace." The verse is a twofer,
they had sufficient spiritual ability to be entering and they were not being compelled by "irresistible grace."

Van, I've asked you this before: did these men enter the kingdom or didn't they?

 

[agedman]

From the very beginning men have "sought" God.

There are however two ways to seek God. The way which He approves, the way He does not.

From the very beginning? Yes.

e.g. Cain and Abel.

To this very day it continues with billions who should rename their "seeking" as "placating".

I am not certain “seeking God” is the typical goal of humankind.

Seeking self gain is truly the ultimate goal. Every human, even believers, make bargaining efforts in order to gain. It is part of the fallen nature.

Humankind do not love God outside of His first loving us and giving to us.

This is exampled in every newborn.

There is not a newborn who first loves, who is not self absorbed, who is not selfish.

Rather it is following others loving and caring the newborn that they are capable of returning love.


Citrcumstances turn humankind to consider about god, but never God. Rather, great rationalization and attempts at fence mending are done in vain hope and self glory. Great effort does not meet with God’s approval outside His acceptable approach.

If the purity and innocence of the newborn have no capacity to seek God, but are bound to selfishness and self preservation, how much less do the sinners who daily denies and turns from the light have any desire to seek God?

 

[HankD]

I am not certain “seeking God” is the typical goal of humankind.

Seeking self gain is truly the ultimate goal. Every human, even believers, make bargaining efforts in order to gain. It is part of the fallen nature.

Humankind do not love God outside of His first loving us and giving to us.

This is exampled in every newborn.

There is not a newborn who first loves, who is not self absorbed, who is not selfish.

Rather it is following others loving and caring the newborn that they are capable of returning love.


Citrcumstances turn humankind to consider about god, but never God. Rather, great rationalization and attempts at fence mending are done in vain hope and self glory. Great effort does not meet with God’s approval outside His acceptable approach.

If the purity and innocence of the newborn have no capacity to seek God, but are bound to selfishness and self preservation, how much less do the sinners who daily denies and turns from the light have any desire to seek God?

My only fiat to this would be - in the case of a child even before the "age of reason" who is beholden to God then it is not an innate seeking or rejoicing but something as a result of an implantation from God.

e.g. John the Baptist who leaped for joy in his mothers womb because he was "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb".

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[Van]

Van, I've asked you this before: did these men enter the kingdom or didn't they?

And I have answered your question before, they were blocked, they did not enter. But initially they were in the process of entering, thus seeking God but not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace."

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman, the process of entering the kingdom from a fallen unregenerate state starts where? Being drawn by the Father! Next comes "heard and learned from the Father." But that part of the process was interrupted, since they were lead astray by false teachings.

I know you must attempt to nullify Matthew 23:13, but your arguments will not get it done.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And I have answered your question before, they were blocked, they did not enter. But initially they were in the process of entering, thus seeking God but not under the compulsion of "irresistible grace."

Thank you. In your view they did not enter. If that is so, they were not seeking God, at least, not in a genuine way, because, "Ask, and it will be given you, seek and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks, finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened" (Matthew 7:7-8). The verbs here are in the Present Continuous tense: "Be asking; go on seeking, knock without ceasing." Therefore, if these people could be prevented by the Pharisees, they were not genuinely seeking, because the Lord Jesus says, "the one who comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37; c.f. Matthew 13:20-21).

But in fact, these people did enter. The Pharisees hindered them but could not prevent them. The example of this is in John 9 and the case of the man born blind. The Pharisees did everything in there power to dissuade him from following our Lord, to the point where they threw him out of the temple, but they couldn't stop him finding Jesus, or, more accurately, they couldn't stop Jesus finding him (John 9:35-38).

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman, the process of entering the kingdom from a fallen unregenerate state starts where? Being drawn by the Father! Next comes "heard and learned from the Father." But that part of the process was interrupted, since they were lead astray by false teachings.

I know you must attempt to nullify Matthew 23:13, but your arguments will not get it done.

The verse does not say heathen folks are “seeking to enter” nor folks are “seeking God.”

The verse says “are entering.” Those who enter by the door are sheep - believers.

One group tries to vainly obstruct (hinder) the believers entering. They have no authority nor strength in such a cause.

For a modern example, the RCC view of their supposed authority over sin and eternity. They pretend to determine the disposal of sin and when it is forgiven. They imagine eternal life depends upon their rituals. They vainly make attempts to obstruct the truth. Yet believers, unhindered and unshackled, are entering.

One thing the verse (Matthew 23:13) does not say is that anyone is “seeking.”

Your adding to that verse what is not even hinted.

One other small caveat that must also be considered when working through the woes of “Matthew.”

The “woes” come also signifying the end of “temple” worship.

“But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.” (John 4:23).​

No longer will people have to rely upon temple rituals. The hindrances and exclusion authority of the temple authorities were coming to an end.

Again, the verse says nothing about “seeking God.”

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman, the process of entering the kingdom from a fallen unregenerate state starts where? Being drawn by the Father! Next comes "heard and learned from the Father." But that part of the process was interrupted, since they were lead astray by false teachings.
.

Are you really contending that the work of the Holy Spirit is subject to human manipulation contrary to:

“8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3)​

 

[Van]

Folks, just read Matthew 23:13, and ask if they were in the process of entering and were blocked by false teaching, which is Christ's assertion, or they were born anew believers that completed their entry.

 

[HankD]

Folks, just read Matthew 23:13, and ask if they were in the process of entering and were blocked by false teaching, which is Christ's assertion, or they were born anew believers that completed their entry.

To be the Devil's Advocate Matthew 23:13 does not definitely say (IMO) those who are being kept back will never go in.

The Bible in Basic English:
Matthew 23:13 But a curse is on you, scribes and Pharisees, false ones! because you are shutting the kingdom of heaven against men: for you do not go in yourselves, and those who are going in, you keep back (or "you hinder").

Then in the KJV in a parallel passage:
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

To hinder is not the same as being forever shut out.

So Irresistible Grace should probably be upgraded to Ultimate Irresistible Grace TULUP .

 

[Van]

To be the Devil's Advocate Matthew 23:13 does not definitely say (IMO) those who are being kept back will never go in. (Agreed)

The Bible in Basic English:
Matthew 23:13 But a curse is on you, scribes and Pharisees, false ones! because you are shutting the kingdom of heaven against men: for you do not go in yourselves, and those who are going in, you keep back (or "you hinder").

Then in the KJV in a parallel passage:
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

To hinder is not the same as being forever shut out. (Agreed, being blocked at a point in time does not address what might happen down the road.)

So Irresistible Grace should probably be upgraded to Ultimate Irresistible Grace TULUP .

What Matthew 23:13 teaches is that whatever the grace needed to be in the process of entering the kingdom is resistible, and to assert it became irresistible later is to establish doctrine on what the Bible does not say. That is what the scribes and Pharisees were doing in the verse!

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast, the idea is that no one seeks God when they are going against God by sinning. But at other times, some do seek God, such as those who will in Romans 9:16 and those in the process of entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13.

Hello Van,
If someone seems to be seeking the biblical God, it will be because of the unseen work of the Spirit of God drawing that sinner;
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

 

[HankD]

What Matthew 23:13 teaches is that whatever the grace needed to be in the process of entering the kingdom is resistible, and to assert it became irresistible later is to establish doctrine on what the Bible does not say. That is what the scribes and Pharisees were doing in the verse!

Wrong I gave what the language says from Jesus mouth.

Also Van I only gave an indication of how it might work from the C point of view.

I do the same when I see the Arminius point of view though I don't like theologies with dead men's names attached to them

 

[Van]

Wrong I gave what the language says from Jesus mouth.
Also Van I only gave an indication of how it might work from the C point of view.
I do the same when I see the Arminius point of view though I don't like theologies with dead men's names attached to them

Then you agree - What Matthew 23:13 teaches is that whatever the grace needed to be in the process of entering the kingdom is resistible, and to assert it became irresistible later is to establish doctrine on what the Bible does not say. That is what the scribes and Pharisees were doing in the verse!

 

[HankD]

Then you agree - What Matthew 23:13 teaches is that whatever the grace needed to be in the process of entering the kingdom is resistible, and to assert it became irresistible later is to establish doctrine on what the Bible does not say. That is what the scribes and Pharisees were doing in the verse!

No I am not saying that. I am saying that the language of this passage and the Luke passage gives scripture for the Calvinist to build a case that there is still a possibility of Irresistable Grace - postponed but still possible.

i.e. We don't know if Felix or Agrippa ever were saved because the scripture just doesn't say but it's possible.

I am not a Calvinist - just being honest about the text.

 

[Van]

Hi Iconclast, your references support my view. Your view, no one seeks God at any time unless under the influence of irresistible grace has been shown to be unbiblical by Matthew 23:13. Lets see, how many verses must be nullified to support your view. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 yes. James 2:5 yes. Matthew 23:13 yes. 1 Peter 2:9-10 yes. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 yes.

I think you answered this before, why is it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Unconditional election would make it a piece of cake. I am looking forward to your deep and thoughtful answer.

 

[Van]

No I am not saying that. I am saying that the language of this passage and the Luke passage gives scripture for the Calvinist to build a case that there is still a possibility of Irresistable Grace - postponed but still possible.
i.e. We don't know if Felix or Agrippa ever were saved because the scripture just doesn't say but it's possible.
I am not a Calvinist - just being honest about the text.

And I am being honest, doctrine based on what scripture does not preclude is bogus. What would be your reaction if I claimed God had put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars?

 

[HankD]

And I am being honest, doctrine based on what scripture does not preclude is bogus. What would be your reaction if I claimed God had put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars?

They were "hindered" doesn't mean they were totally blocked.your statement has nothing preceeding it, mine does. They were "hindered" doesn't mean they were totally blocked.

BTW I also believe the Spirit can be resisisted to the point of His departure.

 

[Van]

They were "hindered" doesn't mean they were totally blocked.your statement has nothing preceding it, mine does. They were "hindered" doesn't mean they were totally blocked.

BTW I also believe the Spirit can be resisted to the point of His departure.

To read Matthew 23:13 as saying they went in is nonsense.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. (NASB)

 

[HankD]

To read Matthew 23:13 as saying they went in is nonsense.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. (NASB)

Bible in Basic English
Matthew 23:13 But a curse is on you, scribes and Pharisees, false ones! because you are shutting the kingdom of heaven against men: for you do not go in yourselves, and those who are going in, you keep back (hinder).