There is none who seeks for God

[agedman]

Ignoring "ARE entering" causes Van to ignore that ONLY believers ARE entering.

The redeemed begin their journey (ARE entering) from the moment they are redeemed and at the event the physical ceases ARE present with the Lord. NONE can truly hinder or even prevent them, though it is evident that all manner of devices and distractions are engaged.

This verse (Matthew 23:13) really has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with the security of the redeemed having eternal life - that from the moment of redemption, believers ARE entering heaven.

By focusing on the supposed possibility that humans might thwart the work of God, the presentation of this thread has marred the very work of God and security of the redeemed.

Remember that prior to the crucifixion, the authority of the temple was supreme, that the power of the rulers controlled the people.

Just as the RCC does, people considered that expulsion from the temple set their estate in eternity at risk. That was false thinking, but by Christ using the framework of the mindset of the people of that day, He was expressing the woeful condition to the rulers.

It is just wrong to attempt to rip that verse out of the contextual scenario, and also to place in jeopardy the security of the redeemed.

ONLY the redeemed ARE entering; therefore, either humankind can un-save the redeemed by hindering them, or can, by human devices, prevent the redeemed from entering heaven.

Both are foolish notions.

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman,
Believes yes, born anew believers no, regenerate believers no. They we doing ok, on their way in when they were lead astray by false teachers;.

 

[Van]

Hi HankD, keep back does not allow them in. The truth is right in front of you.
From Thayers:
2. to permit, allow, not to hinder;
a. followed by a present infinitive [Buttmann, 258 (222)]: Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16 ἄφετε ἔρχεσθαι καὶ μὴ κωλύετε αὐτά, Matthew 13:30; Mark 1:34; John 11:44; John 18:8. by the aorist infinitive: Matthew 8:22; Matthew 23:13 (14); Mark 5:37; Mark 7:12, 27; Luke 8:51; Luke 9:60; Luke 12:39; Revelation 11:9.

The verse clearly teaches those entering were not (1) permitted, (2) allowed and (3) were hindered.

If you compare the verse with other translations, you see (1) allow, (2) permit and (3) suffer.

The OED says in definition of suffer:
2.1 [with object and infinitive] Allow (someone) to do something.
‘my conscience would not suffer me to accept any more’

 

[MB]

Romans 3:11 makes this statement and some read this as saying "there is none who seeks for God at any time." However the intended contextual message might be "there is none who seeks for God all the time, or when they are going against God by sinning."

Contextually, since Paul is saying "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3"23) our third choice is most likely the inspired message.

It seems Ironic to me. David is the one who wrote this in Psalm14
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Imagine that David was a man after God's own heart. He sought God. This is not all inclusuve nor can it be
MB

 

[Van]

It seems Ironic to me. David is the one who wrote this in Psalm14
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Imagine that David was a man after God's own heart. He sought God. This is not all inclusive nor can it be
MB

Exactly right, MB. If you read further (verse 5 & 6) you will see those who sought God as a refuge. The sad truth is when scripture conflicts with long held doctrine believed to be true, rather than change their thinking, some seek to change God's word. And if you only had to make a few verses to no effect, I can see how the option might seem viable, but I am boggled when the effort must include dozens of rather clear passages. For example the rich young ruler was seeking God by keeping (in his own mind) the Law.

P.S. I like your tag line!

 

[MB]

Exactly right, MB. If you read further (verse 5 & 6) you will see those who sought God as a refuge. The sad truth is when scripture conflicts with long held doctrine believed to be true, rather than change their thinking, some seek to change God's word. And if you only had to make a few verses to no effect, I can see how the option might seem viable, but I am boggled when the effort must include dozens of rather clear passages. For example the rich young ruler was seeking God by keeping (in his own mind) the Law.

P.S. I like your tag line!

I believe what David was speaking about is what the fool say's in his heart. Before I was saved I myself said similar things about the Christians I met in church. At the time I thought they were all only fooling them selves. They were only putting on an act.

When I first believed, those ideas left my mind. We have to admit these things are foolish things to think with our hearts. We are all fools before Christ.
MB

 

[Van]

I believe what David was speaking about is what the fool say's in his heart. Before I was saved I myself said similar things about the Christians I met in church. At the time I thought they were all only fooling them selves. They were only putting on an act.

When I first believed, those ideas left my mind. We have to admit these things are foolish things to think with our hearts. We are all fools before Christ.
MB

One of my favorite movie lines, from a Charlie Chan movie, is "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to say something and remove all doubt.

By controlling our tongue we avoid a lot of foolish sin. If we have wisdom in our heart, it is from the LORD.

 

[HankD]

Hi HankD, keep back does not allow them in. The truth is right in front of you.
From Thayers:
2. to permit, allow, not to hinder;
a. followed by a present infinitive [Buttmann, 258 (222)]: Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16 ἄφετε ἔρχεσθαι καὶ μὴ κωλύετε αὐτά, Matthew 13:30; Mark 1:34; John 11:44; John 18:8. by the aorist infinitive: Matthew 8:22; Matthew 23:13 (14); Mark 5:37; Mark 7:12, 27; Luke 8:51; Luke 9:60; Luke 12:39; Revelation 11:9.

The verse clearly teaches those entering were not (1) permitted, (2) allowed and (3) were hindered.

If you compare the verse with other translations, you see (1) allow, (2) permit and (3) suffer.

The OED says in definition of suffer:
2.1 [with object and infinitive] Allow (someone) to do something.
‘my conscience would not suffer me to accept any more’

‘my conscience would not suffer me to accept any more - At the present time. Says nothing about having a change of conscience (like Paul).

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

We are talking about Matthew 23:13 and the parallel passage Luke 11:52.
as I said - those being held back at the time are able to come back at a later time.

Jesus says nothing about their final destiny.

Admittedly you have a stronger case but mine is not impossible

 

[Van]

HankD, the issue is not what the Bible does not address, whether or not they entered at some other time is pure speculation. They were seeking God because they were in the process of entering the kingdom.
Thus they had some spiritual ability. Next, they were not allowed to enter, at that time. Thus, whatever the grace was that had influenced them to be seeking God was not irresistible grace because they were not allowed to enter.

 

[HankD]

HankD, the issue is not what the Bible does not address, whether or not they entered at some other time is pure speculation. They were seeking God because they were in the process of entering the kingdom.
Thus they had some spiritual ability. Next, they were not allowed to enter, at that time. Thus, whatever the grace was that had influenced them to be seeking God was not irresistible grace because they were not allowed to enter.

True but just think, we may meet some, maybe all of them, in heaven who were being disallowed by these pharisees (at the time).

 

[Van]

HankD, I too hope meet many who were initially prevented from entering because of mistaken views.

 

[HankD]

HankD, I too hope meet many who were initially prevented from entering because of mistaken views.

Me2

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman,
Believes yes, born anew believers no, regenerate believers no. They we doing ok, on their way in when they were lead astray by false teachers;.

No proof.

Those entering are believers, not just “doing ok” or “on their way” or they would not be entering at all

 

[Van]

No proof.
Those entering are believers, not just “doing ok” or “on their way” or they would not be entering at all

Try addressing my post. (Believers yes) The process of entering includes several steps according to scripture such as being attracted by the Father, hearing and learning from the Father, etc. They were prevented from completing the entry process by false teachers. This verse proves your assertion they had to be regenerated in order to be entering is bogus. They were seeking God by being in the process of entering the kingdom. If they had been regenerated they were not prevented from entry because we are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ. They were prevented from going in. Thus the grace needed to begin the process of entering is not irresistible.

I know you believe your doctrines and will not accept the proof provided. Saying "taint so" carries no weight.

 

[HankD]

Try addressing my post. (Believers yes) The process of entering includes several steps according to scripture such as being attracted by the Father, hearing and learning from the Father, etc. They were prevented from completing the entry process by false teachers. This verse proves your assertion they had to be regenerated in order to be entering is bogus. They were seeking God by being in the process of entering the kingdom. If they had been regenerated they were not prevented from entry because we are made alive (regenerated) together with Christ. They were prevented from going in. Thus the grace needed to begin the process of entering is not irresistible.
.

After all our discussion I agree with your last statement because of the "false starts" I have seen. i.e. Those who start off great but even appear to "enter in" but subsequently fall away, some even years later.

 

[Van]

After all our discussion I agree with your last statement because of the "false starts" I have seen. i.e. Those who start off great but even appear to "enter in" but subsequently fall away, some even years later.

Spot on!!

 

[MB]

After all our discussion I agree with your last statement because of the "false starts" I have seen. i.e. Those who start off great but even appear to "enter in" but subsequently fall away, some even years later.

What if I may ask made you think they were false starts?
MB

 

[HankD]

What if I may ask made you think they were false starts?
MB

They give testimony of a relationship with Christ, are baptized but later they return to their former life.

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This can even happen to "ministers".

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers (diakonos) also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"By their fruits..."

 

[MB]

They give testimony of a relationship with Christ, are baptized but later they return to their former life.

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This can even happen to "ministers".

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers (diakonos) also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"By their fruits..."

Agreed
MB

 

[Van]

Matthew 13 describes two soils that made starts, they were seeking God. But superficial commitment (lacking firm root) or less than full commitment (still treasuring worldly things) does not result in God crediting that faith as righteousness. It appears in these cases, a lack of going "all in" for Christ is in view. However, Matthew 23:13 presents another issue, people who were drawn to God's kingdom, but their learning from the Father was hindered such that they were lead astray by false teachings.

Both issues are biblical and need to be overcome with kindness and truth. There are "fully committed" individuals, who have gone all in down the wrong path, who one day might hear Jesus say,"I never knew you."