This Guy: Mark Keith Robinson

[Revmitchell]

I cannot find believers using physical violence to defend themselves in the NT. Peter tried and Jesus rebuked him because of it.

Peter was rebuked because it was necessary that Jesus go to the cross. You must really stop divorcing that from its context. It does not apply to your presupposition.

Luk_22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Jesus encouraged them to be ready to defend themselves.

 

[1689Dave]

Peter was rebuked because it was necessary that Jesus go to the cross. You must really stop divorcing that from its context. It does not apply to your presupposition.

Luk_22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Jesus encouraged them to be ready to defend themselves.

I believe the Apostles needed to defend themselves against animals. But using the sword against enemies we are to love runs contrary to all of Christ's teaching. And I cannot find any example of this in the NT. But instead, believers ran and hid when faced with violence. They left their families, jobs, and homes, even their nation, rather than defend themselves using violence.

 

[Revmitchell]

I believe the Apostles needed to defend themselves against animals. But using the sword against enemies we are to love runs contrary to all of Christ's teaching. And I cannot find any example of this in the NT. But instead, believers ran and hid when faced with violence. They left their families, jobs, and homes, even their nation, rather than defend themselves using violence.

Give me an example of Christians abandoning their families in scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

Give me an example of Christians abandoning their families in scripture.

The siege of Jerusalem is one example where Jesus told them to flee. When they murdered "defenceless Stephen" many went abroad.

“Now those who had been scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the message to no one but Jews.” (Acts 11:19) (NET) etc., etc.

 

[Revmitchell]

The siege of Jerusalem is one example where Jesus told them to flee. When they murdered "defenceless Stephen" many went abroad.

“Now those who had been scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the message to no one but Jews.” (Acts 11:19) (NET) etc., etc.

That is not an example of what I asked for please reread my question.

 

[1689Dave]

That is not an example of what I asked for please reread my question.

Thanks for your continued interest in this.
You asked "Give me an example of Christians abandoning their families in scripture."

Did believers take their families with them into prison or exile? Paul had a sister, did she and his nephew leave the area with him whenever he fled? I'm sure Christian families would stick together but even this might mean separation for a time. No doubt all of these had extended unbelieving families they also left behind.

“Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.” (Mark 10:28–30) (KJV 1900)

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for your response. Do you have any examples of this? I know Jesus told us to love our enemies and he demonstrated this for us by his life and defenseless death at their hands.

Jesus clearly taught self defense in a non spiritual setting in John 18:36--"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Then we have the Apostle Paul using fighting skills metaphorically with no hint of condemnation in 1 Cor. 9:26--"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air." The Greek verb for "fight" here is the same one used at that time for boxing in the Olympic games of the 1st century.

Again, Paul wrote in the well-known metaphor of Eph. 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." The Greek noun translated "wrestle" here is the word for the Olympic wrestling of the time.

But why do you demand (in other posts) that we stick to the NT? There are tons of examples of self defense, or advocacy of self defense in the OT. I'll just give two.

David clearly gave the credit for his ability to fight physically (not spiritually) in Ps. 144:1--"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."

Again, we are enjoined in Prov. 24 to protect the weak--"11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

So, in the light of these Scriptures, would you allow a criminal to enter your house, ravish your wife and kill your children, and consider yourself to be righteous? I certainly would not.

 

[John of Japan]

“Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.” (Mark 10:28–30) (KJV 1900)

Speaking as a former missionary for 33 years who left his extended family in America to take a wife and baby to Japan, this does not mean what you think it means if you are using it to argue against stopping a violent intruder who means to kill your family, abandoning your loved ones to wicked violence.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus clearly taught self defense in a non spiritual setting in John 18:36--"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Then we have the Apostle Paul using fighting skills metaphorically with no hint of condemnation in 1 Cor. 9:26--"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air." The Greek verb for "fight" here is the same one used at that time for boxing in the Olympic games of the 1st century.

Again, Paul wrote in the well-known metaphor of Eph. 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." The Greek noun translated "wrestle" here is the word for the Olympic wrestling of the time.

But why do you demand (in other posts) that we stick to the NT? There are tons of examples of self defense, or advocacy of self defense in the OT. I'll just give two.

David clearly gave the credit for his ability to fight physically (not spiritually) in Ps. 144:1--"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."

Again, we are enjoined in Prov. 24 to protect the weak--"11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?"

So, in the light of these Scriptures, would you allow a criminal to enter your house, ravish your wife and kill your children, and consider yourself to be righteous? I certainly would not.

Thanks for joining in. I do not think Jesus advocates violence under any circumstances. The fact that we belong to his Kingdom, and his kingdom is not of this world, proves members of his kingdom do not fight.

Paul using metaphors is just that. Paul using the physical to symbolize the spiritual.

The big challenge is in coming up with examples where Christians defended themselves violently. Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword in this manner.

 

[TCassidy]

But I would rather uphold Christ's teachings and suffer the consequences than kill and send someone to hell.

Wow. So are you saying you would rather see your daughters raped, tortured, and murdered, and your wife the same, and you would just stand there an let it happen because you are "too spiritual" to defend them?

Do they know that about you? That you don't love them enough to defend them?

 

[TCassidy]

I think the idea is to take military grade weapons away from everyone except the civil magistrate.

Military grade assault rifles have been illegal in the hands of civilians since 1934. So your point is moot.

 

[1689Dave]

Speaking as a former missionary for 33 years who left his extended family in America to take a wife and baby to Japan, this does not mean what you think it means if you are using it to argue against stopping a violent intruder who means to kill your family, abandoning your loved ones to wicked violence.

What would you do? A violent intruder attacks you and your family. You love God more than them and your enemy as your own self. If the enemy kills you or your family you go to heaven. But if you kill your enemy he goes to hell.

 

[1689Dave]

Wow. So are you saying you would rather see your daughters raped, tortured, and murdered, and your wife the same, and you would just stand there an let it happen because you are "too spiritual" to defend them?

Do they know that about you? That you don't love them enough to defend them?

Thanks for helping to develop this thread. How can you love your enemies and kill them?

 

[1689Dave]

Military grade assault rifles have been illegal in the hands of civilians since 1934. So your point is moot.

These weapons kill as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. Why place them in the hands of the general public?

 

[TCassidy]

These weapons kill as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. Why place them in the hands of the general public?

What part of my statement, "Military grade assault rifles have been illegal in the hands of civilians since 1934" didn't I communicate well enough for you to understand it?

Military grade assault weapons are not placed in the hands of the general public. THEY HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL IN THE HANDS OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC SINCE 1934.

 

[TCassidy]

Thanks for helping to develop this thread. How can you love your enemies and kill them?

How can God love the lost and still send them to hell?

How can the Old Testament Saints love their enemies and obey God's command to slay them, in some cases including women and children?

How can I love my wife and children if I place the well being of a vicious monster above them?

 

[TCassidy]

But if you kill your enemy he goes to hell.

As all such things are in the hands of God, are you suggesting God is unjust in sending sinners to hell?

 

[1689Dave]

What part of my statement, "Military grade assault rifles have been illegal in the hands of civilians since 1934" didn't I communicate well enough for you to understand it?

Military grade assault weapons are not placed in the hands of the general public. THEY HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL IN THE HANDS OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC SINCE 1934.

I'm calling "assault rifles" military grade because of the mass casualties they inflict. Especially with "Bump Stocks". Why would a Christian want this to exist?

 

[1689Dave]

As all such things are in the hands of God, are you suggesting God is unjust in sending sinners to hell?

If all things are in God's hands, why should we worry about hypothetical situations? Why arm ourselves telling him we will not accept some of the trials he might send our way?

 

[1689Dave]

How can God love the lost and still send them to hell?

How can the Old Testament Saints love their enemies and obey God's command to slay them, in some cases including women and children?

How can I love my wife and children if I place the well being of a vicious monster above them?

We are under the New Covenant and Jesus taught Non-Violence. If you want to return to the Old, you must return to all of it.