Three People in the God head??? It is what the Bible teaches!

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What your impling is that Jesus was not fully God in the flesh because he was not everywhere. (Omnipresent)

Then what you're proposing is that the bottle represents the flesh, and only a little bit of oxygen is in the body...meaning, only a little bit of God was in the flesh?</font>[/QUOTE]John 18:8
8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

KJV

When Jesus said "I am he" he was saying the same thing that Moses said to the Pharo. He was saying that I am the creator of the Universe.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What your impling is that Jesus was not fully God in the flesh because he was not everywhere. (Omnipresent)

Then what you're proposing is that the bottle represents the flesh, and only a little bit of oxygen is in the body...meaning, only a little bit of God was in the flesh?</font>[/QUOTE]John 18:8
8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

KJV

When Jesus said "I am he" he was saying the same thing that Moses said to the Pharo. He was saying that I am the creator of the Universe.

 

[Don]

Um, Jer? Hate to tell you this, but you just used a verse out of context.

John 18:7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way

They weren't asking Him if He was God; they were verifying that He was Jesus of Nazareth, so that they could arrest Him.

Care to try again?

 

[ONENESS]

Is it just me or does anybody else see the contradiction in Oneness's statement. Look at that statement honestly Oneness, you just denied that Jesus is God.

alright You tell me how God could die?

Actually they are just the names of places. If you are going to work to slip things past by using Hebrew, you will have to work harder because on top of Greek I also know how to translate Hebrew.

Could you please show me in the Bible that these are places?

There is some sort division in the Godhead, which persons is the best human term possible to describe. This division of the Godhead is evidenced by Christ's baptism, the fact that only the Son became flesh, the manifestation of three men to Abraham in Gn, the consistant usage of the third person when Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit and to the Father, and by the conversations between the members of the Godhead.

So what you are doing is devideing God? I guess you take Deut 6:4 4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is Three LORD: How can you say that God is split or devided? Just b/c there are three diffrent signs takeing place at one Time? Now who are you to say that we limit God?

According to J.L. Hall "God did not die on the cross, nor did a divine eternal person offer blood from a divine eternal body." Now how can you defend a statement such as this and believe that Jesus is God. Jesus died, which means God died, otherwise Jesus is not God.

Again, you tell me how a God that has no beginning and has no end can die? 1John 3:16 Says: Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us. How do you get that I say that Jesus is not God. God gave his life for us. Not his Eternal life but his fleshly life.

Are you just trying to look foolish? I told you not to use this again unless you could disprove me using the Greek

Well atleat i have to try to look foolish . I dont know Greek, so I guess the Bible is going to have to be the final athority for Now, and It says NAME. SINGULAR

 

[Chemnitz]

alright You tell me how God could die?

Really easy He allowed Himself to die by willing it.

Could you please show me in the Bible that these are places?

Don't read the Bible much do you?

YHWH-Yireh Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "YHWH will provide"

YHWH-Nissi Ex 17:15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, YHWH is my banner

YHWH-Shalom Judge 6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there to YHWH and called it YHWH is peace to this day it still stands at Ophrah, which belongs to the Abiezrites.

The first is the name of a mountain and the second and third are altars.

So what you are doing is devideing God? I guess you take Deut 6:4 4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is Three LORD:

Nope we take it as it says,Hear, O Israel YHWH our God is one YHWH. I explained this before YHWH is the name of the full Trinity.

How can you say that God is split or devided?

Why because the Bible says so Jn 1,Mt 3:13-17, Mt 17:5, Mt 28:19,Mk 1:9-12,Lk 21-22,Jn 3:16, Jn 5, Jn 10:22-38,Jn 14:15-15:1, Jn 16:4b-15, Jn17, 2Cor 1:1-7, 2 cor 13:14. That is just a small sample of the places where it is easy to see the different persons of the One God.

Not his Eternal life but his fleshly life.

So you are saying Jesus isn't God, because 1 Jn 3:16 says God gave his life, it does not say He gave only his "fleshy" life.

Well atleat i have to try to look foolish . I dont know Greek, so I guess the Bible is going to have to be the final athority for Now, and It says NAME. SINGULAR

Well you see that is the problem, the NT was written Greek, so trying to use a translation of the Bible isn't going to help you here and only help to prove my point.

[ June 13, 2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[ONENESS]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you please show me in the Bible that these are places?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't read the Bible much do you?

YHWH-Yireh Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "YHWH will provide"

YHWH-Nissi Ex 17:15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, YHWH is my banner

YHWH-Shalom Judge 6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there to YHWH and called it YHWH is peace to this day it still stands at Ophrah, which belongs to the Abiezrites.

The first is the name of a mountain and the second and third are altars.

And why did he call that place that name?

 

[Chemnitz]

And why did he call that place that name?

How about you do some thing novel and actually read the Bible, something I don't think you have ever done in your life, instead of trying to sidetrack the discussion.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And why did he call that place that name?

How about you do some thing novel and actually read the Bible, something I don't think you have ever done in your life, instead of trying to sidetrack the discussion.</font>[/QUOTE]I am not trying to side track, I am just trying to get you to educate me. You know, Take me to school yadda yadda yadda.

Or are you afraid you might learn something in the process of teaching me?

 

[Chemnitz]

Ok, I will educate you.
Step one locate book called Holy Bible, it may also have written on it King James Version, NIV, NASB, etc.

Step two turn on light.
Step three open the Bible.
Step four turn to page that has verse listed in previous post.
Step five read verse including surrounding verses in immediate vacinity.
Repeat for other verses.

I am going to guess from your attempts to sidetrack the discussion you are ready to concede defeat and admit that the oneness theologians are nothing but false prophets.

 

[hrhema]

The scriptures that was given does not prove three persons in the Godhead. This is where there is so much controversy about the Godhead.

Not all Trinitarians believe in Three persons in the Godhead. They say three personalities.

The Bible declares the the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Bodily. It does not state the Father is in a body or the Holy Ghost is a person.

Just because Jesus used the pronoun he when speaking of the spirit did not mean a separate person.

Why in the world would a person in the Godhead be called the Holy Ghost or Holy spirit. A ghost or a spirit is not tangible. A person is tangible.
Also how can a person be poured out.

Let it also be noted that in the Old Testament it speaks of the Spirit of God being upon Kings, Priests and Prophets. How is a person upon another person. Then in the New Testament it speaks of the emanation. The poured out spirit upon man. How can a spirit be poured out?

Then we have the story of the Baptism of Jesus. Trinitarians think this proves their doctrine.
A voice, and a bird. The fleshly body of Jesus is one person but a voice does not prove another person. It can prove the existence of the Father. Also the spirit descending like a dove.
YOu gonna tell me that the person called the Holy Ghost changed himself into a bird? No, it was the visible symbol of the spirit of God entering Jesus.

As far as Jesus' death. It was the humanity. The body that dies on the cross. If you study the gospels it says Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost. That the Holy Ghost descended on him.
So it would be obvious that there was a time during the early part of Jesus life that the deity part of Jesus was not there.

 

[Don]

Actually, HR, scripture does support a trinity wholeheartedly.

The very chapter that the Oneness Pentecostals like to use to substantiate the practice of speaking in tongues...also speaks of a trinity.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

God raised up Jesus. It does not say God raised up Himself.

"Being by the right hand of God." Who was by the right hand of God? Jesus.

"Having received of the Father." Who received something of the Father? Jesus. Jesus received something from who? The Father.

"Received...the promise of the Holy Ghost." Jesus received what from God? The promise of the Holy Ghost. Doesn't say the promise of God, or of Jesus.

This man Peter, who the Oneness Pentecostals are so fond of quoting in v. 38 (be baptized in the name of Jesus), acknowledged in these two verses the existence of Jesus separate from God, and the Holy Ghost separate from God.

The only way this can be reconciled is through the realization of one godhead consisting of three persons.

The thing Oneness touched upon, and which Mr. Moon completely avoided, was the word "manifest." As Chemnitz pointed out, the word means "reveal or make known."

In 1 Timothy 3:16, God was revealed (made known) in Christ. In John 14:21, Jesus is revealed (made known) in, and through, us. But the context of the word means more than just revealed or made known. To manifest something, in the context in which it was presented, means to "abide in." Yes, I'm adding more to the Greek word translation than the Strong's. I'm attempting to show something from the scripture itself in the way that the word was used.

In John 14:21, if we obey, Jesus will manifest (reveal, make known, abide/live) in us.

In 1 Timothy 3:16, God was revealed/made known/abided in Jesus.

Thus, the attempt to use 1 Timothy 3:16 as a justification that God lived only in the flesh was invalid--as Mr. Moon conceded with his "oxygen in the bottle" analogy.

----------

These threads tend to get cut off at ten pages. I'd like to post my final comments about the subject here.

Let me say that something I've stated about MEE before still holds true: She rarely provides scripture, instead responding with "these people don't understand because they haven't had the experience!"

Lots of scripture has been provided showing that there is a distinction between the three persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

However, neither side is convincing the other of anything.

Let the topic die.

 

[Chemnitz]

The scriptures that was given does not prove three persons in the Godhead. This is where there is so much controversy about the Godhead.

Not all Trinitarians believe in Three persons in the Godhead. They say three personalities.

The Bible declares the the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Bodily. It does not state the Father is in a body or the Holy Ghost is a person.

Just because Jesus used the pronoun he when speaking of the spirit did not mean a separate person.

Why in the world would a person in the Godhead be called the Holy Ghost or Holy spirit. A ghost or a spirit is not tangible. A person is tangible.
Also how can a person be poured out.

Let it also be noted that in the Old Testament it speaks of the Spirit of God being upon Kings, Priests and Prophets. How is a person upon another person. Then in the New Testament it speaks of the emanation. The poured out spirit upon man. How can a spirit be poured out?

Then we have the story of the Baptism of Jesus. Trinitarians think this proves their doctrine.
A voice, and a bird. The fleshly body of Jesus is one person but a voice does not prove another person. It can prove the existence of the Father. Also the spirit descending like a dove.
YOu gonna tell me that the person called the Holy Ghost changed himself into a bird? No, it was the visible symbol of the spirit of God entering Jesus.

As far as Jesus' death. It was the humanity. The body that dies on the cross. If you study the gospels it says Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost. That the Holy Ghost descended on him.
So it would be obvious that there was a time during the early part of Jesus life that the deity part of Jesus was not there.

This post contains multiple heresies that were denounced some 1800 yrs ago. I'd have to look it up to remember exact names but I see at least three.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Ok, I will educate you.
Step one locate book called Holy Bible, it may also have written on it King James Version, NIV, NASB, etc.

Step two turn on light.
Step three open the Bible.
Step four turn to page that has verse listed in previous post.
Step five read verse including surrounding verses in immediate vacinity.
Repeat for other verses.

I am going to guess from your attempts to sidetrack the discussion you are ready to concede defeat and admit that the oneness theologians are nothing but false prophets.

WOW that was amazing, would you look at that. Guys Chemitz just converted me. I am now going to hell.

Chemitz, I have in no way tried to sidetrack the discussion. You are so blind man that you could trip over a cordless phone. You are such a pompous wanta be theologian who would have trouble interpretating "Clifford the Big Red Dog" and argue the point that he is not really Red although the Pictures show it and it says he is red.

See dude it obvious that you are here just to prove that every body else is wrong. You have no intentioin, of wanting to share the Gospel with others. And if you want to claim to be a Theologian, thats fine with me. BUT THAT IS ALL THAT YOU ARE.

For that matter you dont even know what the gospel is. Its the Death burial and the ressurection. And we must obey it. To bad you dont understand that. We must be born of the Water and the Spirit. We must Repent and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Chrst for the Remission of sins.

Now that I got that out

Chemy could you Show me all the places in the old testament that shows the Son was there as a Seperate Person.

[ June 14, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Don:
Actually, HR, scripture does support a trinity wholeheartedly.

The very chapter that the Oneness Pentecostals like to use to substantiate the practice of speaking in tongues...also speaks of a trinity.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

God raised up Jesus. It does not say God raised up Himself.

"Being by the right hand of God." Who was by the right hand of God? Jesus.

"Having received of the Father." Who received something of the Father? Jesus. Jesus received something from who? The Father.

"Received...the promise of the Holy Ghost." Jesus received what from God? The promise of the Holy Ghost. Doesn't say the promise of God, or of Jesus.

This man Peter, who the Oneness Pentecostals are so fond of quoting in v. 38 (be baptized in the name of Jesus), acknowledged in these two verses the existence of Jesus separate from God, and the Holy Ghost separate from God.

The only way this can be reconciled is through the realization of one godhead consisting of three persons.

The thing Oneness touched upon, and which Mr. Moon completely avoided, was the word "manifest." As Chemnitz pointed out, the word means "reveal or make known."

In 1 Timothy 3:16, God was revealed (made known) in Christ. In John 14:21, Jesus is revealed (made known) in, and through, us. But the context of the word means more than just revealed or made known. To manifest something, in the context in which it was presented, means to "abide in." Yes, I'm adding more to the Greek word translation than the Strong's. I'm attempting to show something from the scripture itself in the way that the word was used.

In John 14:21, if we obey, Jesus will manifest (reveal, make known, abide/live) in us.

In 1 Timothy 3:16, God was revealed/made known/abided in Jesus.

Thus, the attempt to use 1 Timothy 3:16 as a justification that God lived only in the flesh was invalid--as Mr. Moon conceded with his "oxygen in the bottle" analogy.

----------

These threads tend to get cut off at ten pages. I'd like to post my final comments about the subject here.

Let me say that something I've stated about MEE before still holds true: She rarely provides scripture, instead responding with "these people don't understand because they haven't had the experience!"

Lots of scripture has been provided showing that there is a distinction between the three persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

However, neither side is convincing the other of anything.

Let the topic die.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

God raised up Jesus. It does not say God raised up Himself.

So now you are saying that Jesus is not God. If God is Jesus, And God is ONE. Then God Raised him self.

Or We can take the approach where Jesus Said "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." Jesus just said here that he would raise himself. (John 2:19)

Lots of scripture has been provided showing that there is a distinction between the three persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

However, neither side is convincing the other of anything.

Don I dont know if I convinced you of anything, but you have admitted that I have shown you something.

Godbless.

And Don, I really do want to thank you for you attitude through this whole thing. I would be honored if I could call you a friend.

again, God bless

 

[Chemnitz]

The Gospel message is not what is under debate. The nature of God is what is under debate. You are right on one thing I am a theologian and so is anybody who ever thought about what the Bible is saying.

Chemy could you Show me all the places in the old testament that shows the Son was there as a Seperate Person.

While the OT is not as explicit as the NT on the Triune nature of God, it does have some insight on the nature of God. However, the verses must be read with the entire canon in mind otherwise one will be prone to misunderstanding.

Gen 1;18;16:7-16;19:1,Ex 3:2-4;14:19;23:20;32:34,

 

[hrhema]

Chem,

The scripture you quoted does not prove the doctrine of the Trinity. Obviously you believe when it talks about the promise of the Holy Ghost you believe it means something the Holy Ghost or God the Holy ghost was to do, to give or whatever. That is not what this scripture means. The Promise of the Holy Ghost is the promise Jesus made to all believers that they would be filled with the Holy spirit.

Jesus made it pretty clear that the doctrine of the Trinity which states the Father is a person is erroneous because he said the Father is a spirit.

What people cannot get past is certain scriptures such as the right hand of God. This is a metaphor. If you look one scripture says standing on the right hand of God so we think his right hand is being stood on? MEn used human metaphors to try and help our finite mind understand the concept of God. Again the New Testament made a very clear statement about the Godhead when it stated that the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS IN JESUS, BODILY. This is evidence that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead. Does this mean I believe he is the only member of the Godhead. No. He is just the only member who is a person or who has a body.

 

[Chemnitz]

Jesus made it pretty clear that the doctrine of the Trinity which states the Father is a person is erroneous because he said the Father is a spirit.

You are assuming that the term person denotes having a body. In the technical language used in the doctrine of the Trinity person does not denote having a physical body.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jesus made it pretty clear that the doctrine of the Trinity which states the Father is a person is erroneous because he said the Father is a spirit.

You are assuming that the term person denotes having a body. In the technical language used in the doctrine of the Trinity person does not denote having a physical body.</font>[/QUOTE]Pleeeeaaaaaasssse explain....about how you determine the definition of "person" according to the Trinity!

MEE

 

[firedome]

I have been sitting here reading through all of these posts for some days now and I find it surprising that I have not seen one person who alligns themselves with the Trinitarians use the following verses for substantiation of their position.

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come ; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood ," (Re. 1:4-5)

 

[Don]

Because it obviously doesn't matter if we use that verse, or a dozen like them: Those that reject the thought of three separate persons, while still being one God, will continue to reject that thought no matter how much scripture they're shown.