Three People in the God head??? It is what the Bible teaches!

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
Because it obviously doesn't matter if we use that verse, or a dozen like them: Those that reject the thought of three separate persons, while still being one God, will continue to reject that thought no matter how much scripture they're shown.

Why stop at three though? What about when God manifested himself to Moses in the burning bush? Now we have four persons in the Godhead. But... then he was a piller of fire by night and a cloud by day.. that totals six persons in the Godhead. Does six equal a trinity?

 

[Don]

And that, my friend, is a perfect example of this "manifestation" thing y'all tried to bring up. I applaud you for bringing those up; wish I'd remembered them myself!

You are exactly correct: God revealed Himself in a burning bush, a pillar of fire, etc.

But no where in scripture does it talk about the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the Burning Bush, the Pillar of Fire, the Whirling Cloud, et al.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
And that, my friend, is a perfect example of this "manifestation" thing y'all tried to bring up. I applaud you for bringing those up; wish I'd remembered them myself!

You are exactly correct: God revealed Himself in a burning bush, a pillar of fire, etc.

But no where in scripture does it talk about the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the Burning Bush, the Pillar of Fire, the Whirling Cloud, et al.

So is that what your trying to say, that God revealed Himself as the Father, that same God Revealed Himself as the Son, and again revealed Himself as the Holy Ghost?

 

[Don]

Nope; that's what you're trying to say.

The burning bush is never recognized as a separate entity from God; Jesus is.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
Nope; that's what you're trying to say.

The burning bush is never recognized as a separate entity from God; Jesus is.

Then which person was the creator?

 

[Don]

"IN the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word was with God (theos), and the Word was God."

In the beginning God (elohiym) created the heaven and the earth.

elohiym
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

logos
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse-instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

theos
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

 

[hrhema]

It is as I have stated before. So many trinitarians disagree on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Basically the origianl Nicene Creed declared that there are three persons in Heaven. Persons in fleshly (glorified) manifestation. Persons just like you and me except they are deity. They have heads, arms, legs etc.

As years of debate happened many people moved away from this belief and adopted the belief that there are three personalities in the Godhead.

This is what I believe Chem is trying to say.
Yet, The Bible, the Word of God explicitly states that Jesus is the express image of God. That in him dwelleth the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD BODILY.

No where in the Bible does it teach three persons as the original Nicene Creed taught. Matter of Fact you have evidence of the Father, The son of God Jesus, as being part of the Godhead and the explanation you find about the Holy Ghost is that it is the emanated or outpoured spirit of the Father and son.

Can the Father take on the appearance of man. Yes. He appeared to Abraham as a theophany.
Yet there are Trinitarians who subscribe to the idea that this was Jesus. Why? They deal with the belief of the Trinity being personalities instead of persons. The true Nicene Trinitarians believe that the Father appeared to Abraham in flesh but as a human person not in his glorified bodily existence.

It is just like many TRinitarians say it was Jesus who appeared in the fiery furncace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego because the King said the person looked like a son of a God.
The scriptures state emphatically that this was an Angel but people for years have said it was Jesus. They forget that the King was an idol worshipper and believed in many Gods and Gods who had gods.

The same thing about who appeared to Joshua. THe Captain of the Lords Hosts and so many people jumped on the band wagon that this was Jesus but again the Bible made it pretty clear that it was an angel.

Then it was the Glory of the Father in the Cloud that led Israel and in the Pillar of Fire but after Israel sinned many times it was an angel who led them.

In Genesis one it said that the spirit of God hovered upon the Earth and the Waters. It does not say the HOLY SPIRIT. It says the Spirit of God. Also you never read in the Old Testament where the Holy Spirit was upon Kings and prophets, etc but it read the Spirit of God.

Why did not the term the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit appear in the Old Testament if it is a third person of the Godhead? Did the 3rd person not dwell then? Some Trinitarians states that the pupose and job of the 3rd person of the Godhead is salvation but where was the salvation issue in the Old Testament?

Then we have the creation issue. The Jews says Jehovah created all things. (The Father) John and other New Testament authors declare that Jesus created all things. Yet, Genesis says the Spirit of God created all these things and according to many Trinitarians this was the Holy Spirit or the Third Person. So we have a quandrary here don't we folks?

Yet to answer this quandrary many Trinitarians say the Trinity created all things jointly but then this would be calling the New Testament writers liars for John said nothing was created that was created but through Jesus. Other Trinitarians will declare that in reality God the Father was silent even in the Old Testament that in reality everything that happened was Jesus performing it etc. Yet the Bible does not make you readily believe that theory. Then one more theory arose and that was the Father created all things in the Name of Jesus. Just like devils were cast out in the name of Jesus or people were healed in that name so all creation was created in that name.

Then on top of all of this we have the issue of Jesus' birth. The Bible plainly states the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant but according to traditional Trinitarian teaching the Father is Jesus' father.

So okay guys what is your explanations for the above.

 

[Chemnitz]

This is what I believe Chem is trying to say.

Don't try to speak for me.

 

[hrhema]

I just read your post and it seems you are a little too defensive all the time. It makes me wonder what purpose you have in posting if you cannot put your defensiveness to rest.

These posts are a place for Christians to debate ideas and beliefs. It is not a place for antagonism, sarcasm, or name calling. I have noticed this a lot on different posts.

God does not need any of us to defend his doctrines or beliefs and any disagreements need to be handled in a Christ like manner.

 

[Chemnitz]

To annoy people like you.

I don't want you speaking for me for a couple of reasons. First you seek to muddle the discussion with confusion. Second, you didn't get my position right. I do not believe God has multiple personalities.

God does not need any of us to defend his doctrines or beliefs and any disagreements need to be handled in a Christ like manner.

No He doesn't but it is the means He chose to use.

 

[Jerry Moon]

So who is th first and the last...

 

[Don]

So who is the Son?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by hrhema:

Can the Father take on the appearance of man. Yes. He appeared to Abraham as a theophany.

Where does the Bible say that this was God the Father?

It is just like many TRinitarians say it was Jesus who appeared in the fiery furncace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego because the King said the person looked like a son of a God.

Angel means messenger. Do you have proof that this messenger was not Christ?

The same thing about who appeared to Joshua. THe Captain of the Lords Hosts and so many people jumped on the band wagon that this was Jesus but again the Bible made it pretty clear that it was an angel.

I don't agree. Why didn't this person deny Joshua's worship? Angels don't accept worship. Joshua 5 ends with this encounter. Joshua 6 begins with what the LORD (not an angel) said to Joshua. In context, it appears to be a continuation of the same account.

[qbThen it was the Glory of the Father in the Cloud that led Israel and in the Pillar of Fire but after Israel sinned many times it was an angel who led them.

[/qb] Where does the Bible say it was the glory of the Father?

Here's another question for you. To whom did Christ pray?... and by the way, who is the Comforter that Christ promised?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
To annoy people like you.

I don't want you speaking for me for a couple of reasons. First you seek to muddle the discussion with confusion. Second, you didn't get my position right. I do not believe God has multiple personalities.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God does not need any of us to defend his doctrines or beliefs and any disagreements need to be handled in a Christ like manner.

No He doesn't but it is the means He chose to use.</font>[/QUOTE]So who chose you??? LOL just kidding chemitz

 

[hrhema]

Scott J:

The questions you ask in your post will have to be answered by those who teach these things when they teach on the Trinity. These are not beliefs I adhere to but these are things I have read over and over again by many different theologians who are writing about the Doctrine of the TRinity.

 

[hrhema]

After reading some of these posts over and hearing more than once those asking the question about Jesus praying. Let me put this question out also:

TO ARGUE AGAINST ONENESS MANY STATE THAT IT WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE THAT JESUS PRAYED TO HIMSELF.
THEN LET THERE BE A RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING:

If God the Son is on the same level as the other two then why did he have to pray at all. Also why do we not find any scripture showing JEsus prayed to the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost is a person and is on the same level with the other two then why do we not have any accounts where anyone prayed to him? Why do we not have accounts where the Father prayed to the son and to the Holy Ghost. If all is co-equal then why is the Father the only one worth of the sons prayers.

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by hrhema:
After reading some of these posts over and hearing more than once those asking the question about Jesus praying. Let me put this question out also:

TO ARGUE AGAINST ONENESS MANY STATE THAT IT WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE THAT JESUS PRAYED TO HIMSELF.
THEN LET THERE BE A RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING:

If God the Son is on the same level as the other two then why did he have to pray at all. Also why do we not find any scripture showing JEsus prayed to the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost is a person and is on the same level with the other two then why do we not have any accounts where anyone prayed to him? Why do we not have accounts where the Father prayed to the son and to the Holy Ghost. If all is co-equal then why is the Father the only one worth of the sons prayers.

Not to meantion that co-equal is not found in the Bible...

 

[Don]

The thought of co-equal is a biblical one:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[Jerry Moon]

Originally posted by Don:
The thought of co-equal is a biblical one:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

That's neat, that means my word is co-equal with me then? I've always thought that when I spoke, my word was part of me. It's never dawned on me that it is simply co-equal to me.

 

[hrhema]

What I cannot understand is that Jesus said his father is a spirit but in turn others say he is a person. They attribute scriptures that talk about his right hand or other bodily parts as proof of this but if we read Psalms 91 it says he has wings and feathers. Do we believe God has wings and feathers? I don't think so. These are metaphors.

Just because the word he is used for the Holy Ghost in John does not prove the Holy Ghost is a person. The spirit of God would be spoken of in a masculine gender since God is masculine.