To KJBO's and old style music folk

[Aaron]

It sounds like you have not seen 'P&W' except in the most extreme cases.

It's not extreme at all. It's mainline Pentecostal/Charismatic.

 

[nodak]

It's easy to say we should just accept each other.

It's easy to blast dcorbett.

Only trouble is, over 4 states and 25 years I've never found any "praise and worship" services that were not seemingly designed to put folks in an eyes closed hands waved swaying trance.

And once I started googling the phenomena, I found it actually is a deliberate control mechanism you can study: this beat=this response, that beat=that response, this tempo does this, that does this other thing.

It is based on fight or flight response and adrenaline addiction.

Worldly, telling, and sad.

And nothing gets you flamed faster than refusing to be a part of it.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Only trouble is, over 4 states and 25 years I've never found any "praise and worship" services that were not seemingly designed to put folks in an eyes closed hands waved swaying trance.

Your anecdotal evidence differs from mine - that doesn't do much in the way of proof for either side. I don't like much of the stuff - but I have seen it used quite often in a way that produces nothing like a trance-like state. To paint all P&W music as 7-11 is no different that claiming that all the old hymns are nothing more than dead music.

Could you point me to reliable scientific evidence that P&W music was designed to produce a trance-like state please?

I don't like the loud beat stuff, but have yet to be left in a trance - normally all I get is a headache

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

It's easy to blast dcorbett.

If you report the post that blast Debbie I will edit it and impose infraction points as justified.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Here is another P&W song that I love

The Power of the Cross
Words & Music by Keith Getty & Stuart Townend

Oh, to see the dawn
Of the darkest day:
Christ on the road to Calvary.
Tried by sinful men,
Torn and beaten, then
Nailed to a cross of wood.

Chorus:
This, the pow’r of the cross:
Christ became sin for us;
Took the blame, bore the wrath—
We stand forgiven at the cross.

Oh, to see the pain
Written on Your face,
Bearing the awesome weight of sin.
Ev’ry bitter thought,
Ev’ry evil deed
Crowning Your bloodstained brow.

Now the daylight flees;
Now the ground beneath
Quakes as its Maker bows His head.
Curtain torn in two,
Dead are raised to life;
“Finished!” the vict’ry cry.

Oh, to see my name
Written in the wounds,
For through Your suffering I am free.
Death is crushed to death;
Life is mine to live,
Won through Your selfless love.

Final Chorus:
This, the pow’r of the cross:
Son of God—slain for us.
What a love! What a cost!
We stand forgiven at the cross.

© 2005 Thankyou Music.

 

[menageriekeeper]

It's not extreme at all. It's mainline Pentecostal/Charismatic.

My Oneness Pentecostal best friend would beg to differ. They don't use that "modern stuff". Hymns and so-called "Southern Gospel" in 4 part harmony are the only approved music style in their church.

Now the Church of God over in the next town, they use P&W and might be considered "charismatic" but since I don't usually see dancing in the aisles or trancelike states over there I doubt it.

You know, if the church was on the forefront of change on issues such as this, instead of dragging up behind, then the world would be following us and we wouldn't be worrying about worldliness. We are some of the most change resistant people in the world and why? No reason I can see.

 

[John of Japan]

My Oneness Pentecostal best friend would beg to differ. They don't use that "modern stuff". Hymns and so-called "Southern Gospel" in 4 part harmony are the only approved music style in their church.

Now the Church of God over in the next town, they use P&W and might be considered "charismatic" but since I don't usually see dancing in the aisles or trancelike states over there I doubt it.

This is not what defines the Charismatics. Try: tongues, healing ministries, "manifest sons of God" theology, ecumenicalism (the big difference between charismatics and old line Pentecostals), "word of faith," "health and wealth."

 

[Mexdeaf]

And what really sets them off is, we don't crybaby about it.

I'm trying to contain myself... Okay, I did.

 

[Sapper Woody]

One of the arguments commonly heard against P&W is along the lines of it being emotional, or eliciting an emotional response. While this is true to an extent, the same can be said of traditional hymns as well.

As a song leader in my church before I joined the military, my pastor was so anti P&W that he wouldn't even let us put a projector screen up to put the words to hymns on it. However, he had some guidelines regarding what songs to use when in the service. He wanted me to start with an upbeat hymn to get people feeling good and positive. Then, right before the message, he wanted something slow and thoughtful, to get people in a "receptive" mood.

So, I propose that this argument is no longer valid. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

Now, me personally, I have no problem with using P&W songs, as long as it isn't those "7-11" songs mentioned earlier. But even that's just preference; I think they get annoying.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

One of the arguments commonly heard against P&W is along the lines of it being emotional, or eliciting an emotional response. While this is true to an extent, the same can be said of traditional hymns as well.

As a song leader in my church before I joined the military, my pastor was so anti P&W that he wouldn't even let us put a projector screen up to put the words to hymns on it. However, he had some guidelines regarding what songs to use when in the service. He wanted me to start with an upbeat hymn to get people feeling good and positive. Then, right before the message, he wanted something slow and thoughtful, to get people in a "receptive" mood.

So, I propose that this argument is no longer valid. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

Now, me personally, I have no problem with using P&W songs, as long as it isn't those "7-11" songs mentioned earlier. But even that's just preference; I think they get annoying.

Excellent post - even down to the 'annoying-ness' of those repetitious ones, but it is not worldy just cause it annoys me (I realise that we agree) I preach in a place that uses them and I keep trying to arrive after the 'worship' time so I am in a good mood when I preach

 

[DiamondLady]

One of the arguments commonly heard against P&W is along the lines of it being emotional, or eliciting an emotional response. While this is true to an extent, the same can be said of traditional hymns as well.

Music is made up of three parts. Makes no difference what kind of music, it's still 3 parts....Melody, Harmony, and Rhythm.

Melody is the recognizable part of music. Don't believe me, play Name That Tune, many songs we can recognize in four notes.

Harmony is what makes music beautiful. Chopsticks is an annoying little ditty, but add some beautiful accompaniment to it and it becomes beautiful music.

Rhythm brings variety to music. It's what gives singers a place to catch a breath! It's also the driving beat to the music.

All music used to be written with the emphasis of beat on the 1st and 3rd counts of each measure (think a waltz). Then along came rock and roll and the emphasis of beats changed to the 2nd and 4th beats. The beat controls the feet. It's hard to listen to rock and roll and not want to move. Almost all CCM music is written with the emphasis on beats 2 & 4.

That sad part of CCM music is that much of it is hard to tell from the worldly rock and roll. We have a local radio station that plays CCM. I almost always listen to BBN but on Saturday mornings they have children's programs and if I'm taking a quick errand I will look for something else to listen to. There are often times when I pop on that radio station I have to take a second look to make sure I have it right because it certainly doesn't sound like Christian music to me!

I want to hear, play and sing, Christian music that has sound doctrine, that edifies, that teaches and encourages, that if there is a visitor in our church they KNOW they're in church and not at a rock concert, that it praises God and not man, that the focus is on God and not man, and that the music does not offend.

 

[Amy.G]

Then along came rock and roll and the emphasis of beats changed to the 2nd and 4th beats. The beat controls the feet. It's hard to listen to rock and roll and not want to move. Almost all CCM music is written with the emphasis on beats 2 & 4.

That sad part of CCM music is that much of it is hard to tell from the worldly rock and roll.

What is sad about wanting your feet to move when praising and worshiping God? Did you know the Jews danced and raised their hands in praise of God? They used all kinds of rhythm and musical instruments, even waving banners of bright colors in their worship. I think the NT church of today is afraid to let go and truly worship for fear of being criticized and being compared to charismatic weirdness. That's what's sad to me.

 

[Sapper Woody]

All music used to be written with the emphasis of beat on the 1st and 3rd counts of each measure (think a waltz). Then along came rock and roll and the emphasis of beats changed to the 2nd and 4th beats. The beat controls the feet. It's hard to listen to rock and roll and not want to move. Almost all CCM music is written with the emphasis on beats 2 & 4.

This argument is based upon "that's the way we used to do it" philosophy. (By the way, a waltz doesn't put emphasis on the 1st and 3rd. It emphasis the first, less the second, least the third.) But just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.

As for the wanting to move, it's hard to listen to the hymn "Saved, Saved, " and not want to get into it, shouting, or something.

Saved! Saved!
My sins are all pardoned my guilt is all gone!
Saved! Saved!
I am saved by the blood of the crucified one!

Again, there is nothing wrong with an emotional response to music. Music plays a role in the service. That role is to praise and bring glory to God, and to prepare the audience to receive the message that the preacher is about to bring. As long as the music isn't detracting from the message of God, I believe it is ok.

Now, I also believe in appropriateness. I wouldn't have a strobe light and a fog machine, for instance. I also wouldn't have a rock sounding group lead the worship service. But this is my preference.

That sad part of CCM music is that much of it is hard to tell from the worldly rock and roll.

And southern gospel is many times hard to tell from country or bluegrass, aside from the words. And many hymns are hard to tell from folk tunes of the day, aside from the words.

I am not trying to condemn those who don't appreciate CCM at all. However, when my opinion comes under fire, I feel that I must point out inconsistencies in the "anti-CCM" arguments.

 

[Mexdeaf]

And the fact remains that yesterday's "CCM" often becomes today's hymn.

It's all a matter of taste and opinion. You can "Garlock" it all you want to but just because music makes you move (emotionally or physically) doesn't make it sinful.

 

[Amy.G]

Personally, I can't stand Southern Gospel.

On the other hand, I have great praise and worship, just myself and God while listening to Jeremy Camp or Casting Crowns. Anyone who thinks their songs don't exalt God has never heard the lyrics.

 

[rsr]

To paint all P&W music as 7-11 is no different that claiming that all the old hymns are nothing more than dead music.

Correct. Some of the contemporary stuff is wretched, just as some of the old stuff was wretched. We can only hope that the dross will be cast away, as it has in the past.

Some of the contemporary music is outstanding and will continue to be sung for decades, just as the best of the older songs have survived.

I am a bit heartened at the number of good hymns that have been produced in the past few years; the two by Stuart Townend and Keith Getty already mentioned are outstanding examples of modern hymnody (and Townend has a number of other excellent hymns that rival anything by Fannie Crosby, IMO.) I hope that contemporary music is realizing the need for hymns as opposed to P&W alone and will nourish them while maintaining the best of the old music.

This is certainly not far-fetched. Casting Crowns' arrangement of "Glorious Day" is better than the version I group up singing.

(I will not suggest that Roger may have a weak spot for Getty just because he's Irish. That would just be wrong.)

 

[rsr]

Personally, I can't stand Southern Gospel. .

My sentiments as well; and I grew up singing a lot of Southern Gospel.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

(I will not suggest that Roger may have a weak spot for Getty just because he's Irish. That would just be wrong.)

Of course that would be unjust to say that because Getty is Northern Irish

We do use a lot of their stuff. I would love to meet them and may. We know folks who go to church with them.

 

[dcorbett]

Here is one of my favorite P&W songs- no 7-11 to it and it is more scriptural than many hymns.

In Christ Alone lyrics

Here in the power of Christ I'll stand.

We sang this in our morning worship.....yes, in an IFB church!

 

[preacher4truth]

Personally, I can't stand Southern Gospel.

On the other hand, I have great praise and worship, just myself and God while listening to Jeremy Camp or Casting Crowns. Anyone who thinks their songs don't exalt God has never heard the lyrics.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: