To KJBO's and old style music folk

[DiamondLady]

That's right! And, if it doesn't pass Aaron's judgment then it is not acceptable. Please, Aaron you will have to do better than that. So far, all you and Diamond Lady have done is to give your opinion without one ounce of the Bible to back up which style is appropriate and which isn't.

Here's some scripture for you.
Eph 2:10 Does the music promote good behavior?
Eph 4:29 Do the words edify or corrupt the mind.
Phil 4:8 Will this music promote good thinking?
Col 3:16 Does this music teach and encourage the believer?
I Thess 5:22 Does this music have an appearance of evil? (unclear message, no gospel)
I Tim 4:16 Do the musicians believe sound doctrine?
Titus 2:14 Are the musicians pecularly Christian in their appearance and actions?
II Cor 6:3 Does this music offend strong, mature Christians? Does it confuse the unbeliever?
Phil 2:3 Does the music cause disunity or division in the church?
I Cor 14:7 Is the music distinctive or cause confusion to new Christians as they try to discern Godly music from worldly music?

 

[humblethinker]

I disagree that the Bible does not address music styles. I believe it does in that music was written to celebrate, worship, communicate, praise, encourage, and even warn.

So, which 'style' inherantly has those qualities as ingredients? I can see many styles... jazz, orchestral, country, rock, rockabilly, bluegrass, operatic, hymnal, contemporary...

None I am aware of. I don't know any song in the Bible that says,
"Well, speak of the devil,
He's no friend of mine,...
We are here to rock you and to say...
To Hell With the Devil

I'm thinking Motley Crue... circa 1986... ;-)

I stand by my statement that rock music makes one feel good. The beat is designed to do that.

I look at Christian rock like this....just because it sounds good doesn't mean it's good for you. Christian music should glorify God. He inhabits our praise, it is a sweet savor. We need to examine the music we listen to by scripture. /COLOR]

I can think of lots of reasons to discourage the consumption of raddishes too. I think it would miss the mark though.

 

[dcorbett]

If I cannot understand the words, and if the music is so overwhelming that it takes away from the lyrics, then it is not for me...and shouldn't be in church!

 

[Rippon]

If I cannot understand the words, then it is not for me...and shouldn't be in church!

Are you talking about the KJV?

 

[DiamondLady]

So, which 'style' inherantly has those qualities as ingredients? I can see many styles... jazz, orchestral, country, rock, rockabilly, bluegrass, operatic, hymnal, contemporary...

MANY different styles CAN have those ingredients. I am not totally against contemporary music, I am, however, selective in what I think is honoring unto God and edifies the believers.

I'm thinking Motley Crue... circa 1986... ;-)

That quote was from Stryper's To Hell With the Devil....Christian rock, quite popular group

I can think of lots of reasons to discourage the consumption of raddishes too. I think it would miss the mark though.

I love your sense of humor!!! I had a great-aunt however, that might disprove your point here, it's said she died from eating too many radishes. She was 21. :tonofbricks:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Understand I'm being rather sarcastic and my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek, so no one get offended while I make my points:

the music is so overwhelming that it takes away from the lyrics,

what if there are NO lyrics? Can we play music with no lyrics in church? (better tone down that organ!)

stand by my statement that rock music makes one feel good. The beat is designed to do that.

I look at Christian rock like this....just because it sounds good doesn't mean it's good for you. Christian music should glorify God. He inhabits our praise, it is a sweet savor. We need to examine the music we listen to by scripture.

And the thing wrong with "feeling good" is??? Or, since when is feeling good "worldly"? Are we to be sour pusses all the time, going around with perfectly straight faces never showing enjoyment or joy? Where does the scripture tell us to that?

Does God not love a cheerful heart?

God does inhabit praise, but will He only inhabit our praise if its at a certain decibel level?

None I am aware of. I don't know any song in the Bible that says,
"Well, speak of the devil,
He's no friend of mine,...
We are here to rock you and to say...
To Hell With the Devil

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here's some scripture for you.
Eph 2:10 Does the chocolate promote good behavior?
Eph 4:29 Do(es) the taste edify or corrupt the mind.
Phil 4:8 Will this chocolate promote good thinking?
Col 3:16 Does this wrapper teach and encourage the believer?
I Thess 5:22 Does this brand have an appearance of evil? (unclear message, no gospel)
I Tim 4:16 Do the manufacturers believe sound doctrine?
Titus 2:14 Are the workers pecularly Christian in their appearance and actions?
II Cor 6:3 Does the odor offend strong, mature Christians? Does it confuse the unbeliever?
Phil 2:3 Does the variety of chocolate cause disunity or division in the church?
I Cor 14:7 Is the flavor distinctive or cause confusion to new Christians as they try to discern Godly music from worldly music?

Now, seriously.

Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Cor. 14:40.

If music is used in worship, the manner or style in which it is performed is to be judged.

Hey Aaron, how is CC indecent and out of order?

For that matter, who are we to tell some young something that he can't possible worship while listening to it or even socalled "harder" Christian rock bands?

What gives us the authority to say something is indecent and out of order simply because we don't like the sound, the rhythm, the clash of dichordant chords?

Who says David can't dance nekkid in praise to God for the victory won, just cause his wife didn't like it?

Our authority is the Bible and considering some the music God used through the ages, I'm guessing we haven't come up with anything He doesn't like or He'd have given us some specifics in the matter. Music has been around since just a few generations from Adam (through Cain's line no less). Surely if God wanted a specific style of music to be used He'd have told us so.

 

[abcgrad94]

Here are my church's guidelines for music:
test the spirit
test the message
test the messenger

 

[humblethinker]

I love your sense of humor!!! I had a great-aunt however, that might disprove your point here, it's said she died from eating too many radishes. She was 21. :tonofbricks:

Great! Now I have an excuse to refuse them!

Seriously though, I have a good friend that voiced his concerns about contemporary 'praise' music. He is from a very traditional style of worship service, he actually leads the music and choir at his church. Hearing him describe his objections made me think that he hadn't been to a contemporary service since the late 80's. He commented on how they would just sing the same chorus over and over and the lyrics had such shallow meaning. I told him that having attended many contemporary worship services the past year that not once did I experience a service as he described it and that it seems his descriptions were a paper tiger. That often older hymns were sung to modern music and that for me many of the current songs enabled me to worship Him in a way that I had never been able to with the old hymnal style of worship. Being younger than me I felt that he agreed, but, what's he gonna do? There's just enough stubborn, stick-in-the-mud, I'm-a-not-gonna-change people there to... I digress, and maybe I should have sooner, but I think you get my point.

Well, thanks for your kind response and sense of humor as well!

 

[humblethinker]

Are you talking about the KJV?

:thumbsup: that was funny!
Maybe they are singing kjv scripture there. ;-)

 

[dcorbett]

:thumbsup: that was funny!
Maybe they are singing kjv scripture there. ;-)

Actually, no, I can read KJV just fine, it is what I was reading at age 6, and at age 58, it continues to be just what I need.

 

[TC]

If I cannot understand the words, and if the music is so overwhelming that it takes away from the lyrics, then it is not for me...and shouldn't be in church!

It seems that you are making your opinion the standard. I can understand the words and I like the music. The words that are in keeping with sound doctrine are fine and can be used in church. What makes your opinion more authoritative than mine?

 

[TC]

Our authority is the Bible and considering some the music God used through the ages, I'm guessing we haven't come up with anything He doesn't like or He'd have given us some specifics in the matter. Music has been around since just a few generations from Adam (through Cain's line no less). Surely if God wanted a specific style of music to be used He'd have told us so.

That is what I think as well. Nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to avoid any one style of music, but we are told to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Anyone who argues that one style of music is good and a different style is evil is doing so out of personal opinion and tradition (or culture).

 

[TC]

Here's some scripture for you.
Eph 2:10 Does the car promote good behavior?
Eph 4:29 Do the tires edify or corrupt the mind.
Phil 4:8 Will driving this car promote good thinking?
Col 3:16 Does this car teach and encourage the believer?
I Thess 5:22 Does this car have an appearance of evil? (unclear message, no gospel)
I Tim 4:16 Do the drivers believe sound doctrine?
Titus 2:14 Are the drivers pecularly Christian in their appearance and actions?
II Cor 6:3 Does this car offend strong, mature Christians? Does it confuse the unbeliever?
Phil 2:3 Does the car cause disunity or division in the church?
I Cor 14:7 Is the car distinctive or cause confusion to new Christians as they try to discern Godly cars from worldly cars?

 

[David Lamb]

Here's some scripture for you.
Eph 2:10 Does the music promote good behavior?
Eph 4:29 Do the words edify or corrupt the mind.
Phil 4:8 Will this music promote good thinking?
Col 3:16 Does this music teach and encourage the believer?
I Thess 5:22 Does this music have an appearance of evil? (unclear message, no gospel)
I Tim 4:16 Do the musicians believe sound doctrine?
Titus 2:14 Are the musicians peculiarly Christian in their appearance and actions?
II Cor 6:3 Does this music offend strong, mature Christians? Does it confuse the unbeliever?
Phil 2:3 Does the music cause disunity or division in the church?
I Cor 14:7 Is the music distinctive or cause confusion to new Christians as they try to discern Godly music from worldly music?

Let me start by saying that I agree with much of what you say, Diamond Lady. Indeed in one way I would go even further, and say that "performances" of any style of music (some people playing/singing, others listening) have no place in church worship.

However, I can't agree that all the scripture verses you mention, and your questions beside them, have anything to do with music.

About music promoting good behaviour: Yes, of course music affects behaviour. We have the example of David playing music to Saul. This one I agree with.

About words edifying the mind: That surely is nothing to do with music. Words can be edifying or unedifying, regardless of whether or not they have been set to music. And, let's face it, if the words are unedifying, it doesn't matter what style of music we set them to, they will remain unedifying.

About music and good thinking: (same as for behaviour).

About music teaching and encouraging: Words can teach, but music by itself cannot. Music can encourage, which probably explains why military bands, sea shanties, and work songs came into existence.

About music having the appearance of evil: The verse you mentioned seems, in some English translations, to be saying, "Abstain from everything which, though not evil itself, appears or seems to be evil." But it rather means, "Abstain from every form of evil." And again, it is not music as such which can be evil; it's words. I think of Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, for example. The notes, the orchestration and the rhythmic patterns the composer uses are not evil, but the words are. They include "the freshness of medieval love lyrics, exuberance of the drinking song, the zest of the sinner's 'confessions', the wild humour of the hymns to gambling and gluttony, the stoic litany to Lady Luck ('Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi') which Orff chose to open and close his score. S*x is also a dominant theme in many of the songs." (from this website)

About musicians believing sound doctrine: Surely all Christians should believe sound doctrine. Even if you are talking about musicians who put on a performance for others to listen to, the same thing applies.

About musicians being peculiarly Christian in their appearance and actions: Again, surely every Christian should be concerned with these things (though not to the extent that we forget that the Lord looks on the heart). As far as appearance is concerned, what is "peculiarly Christian"?

About music offending or confusing: Yes, music can offend. But such offence is not limited to one style or genre of music. I would be offended if my church suddenly demanded that we start singing hymns to Gregorian chant, for instance. (That's not likely to happen, I assure you! ) Musical styles can also confuse, either by being complicated to sing, or because they are linked in the worshipper's mind with some particular type of song other than a hymn. There are, for instance, some hymn tunes based on melodies from Mozart's operas, and plenty of hymn tunes in the style of early 20th century popular music. Exclusive use of either of such styles of music could give wrong ideas about Christ and His glorious gospel.

About music causing disunity: The devil will use anything he can to bring about disunity in a church. It is not limited to differences over musical preferences.

But I would stress that I do agree with much of what you say.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If I cannot understand the words, and if the music is so overwhelming that it takes away from the lyrics, then it is not for me...and shouldn't be in church!

Is this meant for every church or just the one you go to?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

While that's one song, and the one I used as an example earlier in my post, I stand by my statement that rock music makes one feel good. The beat is designed to do that.

I look at Christian rock like this....just because it sounds good doesn't mean it's good for you. Christian music should glorify God. He inhabits our praise, it is a sweet savor. We need to examine the music we listen to by scripture. /COLOR]

A couple of things. We have of slappy happy 'feel good' music in our traditional hymnals. Would you consider them wrong?

Secondly, if rock music is designed to make one feel good (I would like to see some evidence) it fails miserably with me. I don't like it and it gives me a headache. If it is loud and raucous it can even make my stomach hurt. That is hardly the 'feel good' response that is claimed here.

You said to examine the music in the light of scripture. What references do you have to musical styles? The verse you used are generic and someone who is blessed and edified by the rock style could use those passages to affirm their choice.

 

[Jim1999]

In all fairness, singing played an important role in the Welsh revivals. When preachers couldn't speak, the congregation broke out in song. and testimonies followed from there.

Then, if people realized where the common wedding march came from and what it means, I doubt if any Christian wedding would employ it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DiamondLady]

I've come to see that no matter what is said there are those who are going to find the negative side and beat the horse with it.

Bro Lamb, thank you...and while I appreciate your comments my point was not about the notes (music) but the whole composition.

I also agree with the comment that NO performance belongs in worship. That's not the place for performing anything.

One last thought and then I leave this thread....scripture teaches "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. " If you are a rock and roll fan before you become a Christian and ALL old things pass away, in my mind it makes sense that your musical preferences would change also. All things become new. If you drag your old life into your new life then I would think it time to stop and take a look and ask God what needs to change. If HE is satisfied with the music you bring into your life and worship then I have nothing to gripe about. For me, I have shared my thoughts and preferences. You may not agree. That's fine. But as I honor your right to listen to what you want then I believe you should honor my preferences also.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

But as I honor your right to listen to what you want then I believe you should honor my preferences also.

This is the issue of the whole thread - no one is critical of your choices and preferences. In fact, they are generally the same as mine. But I can't hold others to my preferences. If they are blessed, edified, touched, and built up by music I don't like, who am I to tell them they must conform to my preferences? I pastor a small church. While our music is very conservative for 2011 I don't 'like' every single song that we use, but I have no Bible grounds to say no to them.

I have a feeling that I would be very at home in your church when it comes to music, but I can't expect everyone to be the same and cannot tell them that their music in wrong based on my preferences when there is no Bible standard on music styles.

I think you misapply the idea of 'all things have passed away.' Does that mean if I like science fiction before I get saved I won't like it after salvation? If I like Alabama football before salvation I must become a Tennessee fan after I get saved (no comment TomVol )? Sinful things are passed away, unless we prove a rock beat to be sinful it is hard to say that it must pass away at salvation.

 

[abcgrad94]

I have a feeling that I would be very at home in your church when it comes to music, but I can't expect everyone to be the same and cannot tell them that their music in wrong based on my preferences when there is no Bible standard on music styles.

I agree with you about Christian liberty regarding personal preferences, but I do believe we are given a standard--to use psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord. Where IS that verse? I can't remember the referrence.