To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

[The Biblicist]

Genesis 2:2,3 There is no command in those verses.
Exodus 20:7-11. This is a command given to Israel alone as verified in Exodus 31.

I do not deny that the Sabbath in the frame work of the OLD COVENANT was given to Israel ALONE. No argument there. Neither do I argue that the same Sabbath with that framework was abolished (Col. 2:16).

Mark 7. The Sabbath was given for man; FOR him, not that man should be a slave to the sabbath. Man was not given to the sabbath; but the sabbath was given for man; just like a father gives a gift for a son. The gift doesn't rule over the son. He does what he wants with it.

Neither do I argue that the Creation Sabbath was fettered by the Leviticual restrictions but was designed as a day for man's benefit and public worship in "spirit and in truth" as a day of rejoicing and gladness (Psa. 118:24).

The Gentile believer has never been subjected to the Sabbath; it was given to the Jew.

Here is where we part company. Again, Jesus said the "Sabbath was made for man" not merely the Jew. No Jews were existent when the Sabbath "was made" and so it could not possibly have been "made" for the Jews.

Where we agree is that the Sabbath within the OLD COVENANT and its Levitical restrictions was abolished.

Where we disagree is the creational Sabbath and its application to New covenant saints - Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:1-14; Rev. 1:10.

 

[The Biblicist]

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

The command originated in Exodus 16:23. God complains about their disobedience ONLY after Moses had given them the command. Verse 23 is also the first time the word "sabbath" is used in scripture.

Impossible! Look at verse 4-5. God was going to test them concerning this law even before he gave them manna. That proves "my law" already existed and was known among the Jews.

4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

 

[DHK]

Here is where we part company. Again, Jesus said the "Sabbath was made for man" not merely the Jew. No Jews were existent when the Sabbath "was made" and so it could not possibly have been "made" for the Jews.

What does "made for" mean?
If I am a carpenter I can make a bed for my son. He does not become a slave to the bed. The bed is his to do as he wishes. I made it for him. The Sabbath was made for us; not the other way around. We are not slaves to it. There is no law requiring us to keep it. What law requires the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath. The only laws that exist, (concerning the Sabbath) were written to the Jews. There are no laws written to Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath--none.
There is no law in Genesis 2:2,3. There is no command there.
There is no command in Mark 7--none. The statement that the Sabbath is made for man is not a command.

Where we agree is that the Sabbath within the OLD COVENANT and its Levitical restrictions was abolished.

Where we disagree is the creational Sabbath and its application to New covenant saints - Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4:1-14; Rev. 1:10.

You are a Calvinist and therefore (I assume) a covenant theologian.
The Bible says:
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--The covenants were given to Israel.
The only covenant given to the NT believer is the relationship he has with Jesus Christ.

The only principle that is given is given in Genesis 2:3 and that is a principle of rest--man should rest one day in seven. Moody taught that principle if you read him carefully enough.
He rested on Saturday; worked on Sunday, but encouraged others to take their rest on Sunday which he called the Christian sabbath--his day of work.

 

[The Biblicist]

What does "made for" mean?
If I am a carpenter I can make a bed for my son. He does not become a slave to the bed.

You are building a straw man argument. I have already conceded the Sabbath as defined and contained in the Levitical law of the Old Covenant has been abolished. So there is no servitude in the creation sabbath observance any more than obeying any other commandment in scripture. The Bible says that his commandments are not "grevious" and you are trying to place the creation Sabbath in a "grevious" light. I plainly spelled out the observance according to Psalm 118:24 to be a joy and delight.

The bed is his to do as he wishes.

You are making something very difficult that is quite simple. God did not make the creation Sabbath for man to do with it whatever he wishes as Genesis 2:3 says it was "set apart" or sanctified and that principle is set forth by Isaiah 53:12. It is called "the Lord's day" not "the Man's day."

I made it for him. The Sabbath was made for us; not the other way around. We are not slaves to it.

Apply this logic to any other commandment in scripture. Apply it to the "Lord's Supper." The very word translated "Lord's" in both 1 Cor. 11:20 and Revelation 1:10 implies that both are observed in keeping with the Lord's teachings. Does that make us slaves and in servitude to the Sabbath any more than to the Lord's Supper???

There is no law requiring us to keep it. What law requires the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath.

Gen. 2:2-3; Psal. 118:24 ("made" same word translated "observe" in the fourth commandments; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4;9-10; Rev. 1:10; Mk. 2:27; etc.).

You are a Calvinist and therefore (I assume) a covenant theologian.

I am neither. I am not a Calvinist as I despise most of what Calvin taught. I am not a "covenant" theologian but a dispensational post-trib pre-millennialist. I am simply not a "hyper" dispensationalist. I believe in the yet future salvaiton of the whole nation of Israel and the premillennial reign of Jesus Christ on this present restored earth.

The Bible says:
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--The covenants were given to Israel.
The only covenant given to the NT believer is the relationship he has with Jesus Christ.

Again, I believe the whole Old Covenant Sabbath with its levitical restrictions are abolished.

However, I do not believe ANY of the Ten commandments began with Israel or Mount Sinia or with the Old Covenant as you can find ALL of them prior to Mount Sinai and violated since the Genesis 4. ALL of the ten commandments are written in the heart under the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:3) and they are ALL repeated in the New Testament (James 2:10-11) because to violate ONE is to violate ALL.

The Law was never given to save, justify, sanctify or obtain heaven for believers before or after Calvary but to instruct them in the nature of good and evil and they are still to be used for that.

The only principle that is given is given in Genesis 2:3 and that is a principle of rest--man should rest one day in seven. Moody taught that principle if you read him carefully enough.
He rested on Saturday; worked on Sunday, but encouraged others to take their rest on Sunday which he called the Christian sabbath--his day of work.

You need to study the Biblical meaning of "rest" more thoroughly as it involves more than PHYSICAL rest but SPIRITUAL rest and the idea of FELLOWSHIP with God. It is a public day of physical and spiritual rest in fellowship with God. The Sabbath is more than gospel rest because all before the cross entered into gospel rest (Heb. 4:2-3) and yet observed the Sabbath. It is not fulfilled until man is redeemed in spirit, soul and body and literally enters a new creation where God can again say "It is very good" and that day has not yet come but it is still future (Heb. 4:11).

 

[BobRyan]

You CANNOT pick and choose the Covenant to be under, IF you insist to have the Sabbath ...

hint - notice "the details" in what the Baptist Confession of Faith says - about the "Moral Law of God" written on the HEART - as under the NEW COVENANT.

To be fair to Biblicist - the part of his argument that does ring true with the Baptist Confession of Faith - is the part where he admits that the Sabbath Commandment - the Fourth Commandment - in the TEN Commandments - is STILL binding on the saints today just as it was for Adam and Eve.

Here is the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 - section 19. Notice that it is all TEN of the TEN Commandments that are given to all mankind starting in Gen 2 and holding true - to this very day. It is the "moral law" of God even for the saints.

============================

http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19

THE LAW OF GOD

19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
(2) Gen 2:16-17
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12


19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai2 in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4


19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
(1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
(2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
(3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16


19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
(1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
(2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10

19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].

=====================================

 

[BobRyan]

DHK, I think you misread - I said that it WAS moral to break the sabbath.
.

Hence the title of the thread.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD"

Hence - 1John 5:2-4

==========================================


In Mark 7 God says it is wrong to obey tradition instead of the Commandments of God also called "the Word of God" Mark 7:13.

But there are "some" who would argue that it is wrong - in fact legalism, salvation by works - to obey the Word of God as God gave it - rather than tradition.

For example - God's Word says -

Exodus 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day;therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]


========================

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2006881&highlight=wrong#post2006881
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2006881&postcount=75

The Biblicist;2006881


1. You will NEVER find the words "of the week" in any account of the creation Sabbath law anywhere in Scripture - NEVER!

2. SDA and other Saturdarians use logical inference to justify restricting the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week." There rationale goes something like this. Our week is based upon the first seven days of creation, therefore, since the seventh day in creation is the Sabbath it follows that the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week." This is faulty logic as I will point out shortly.


8. It is now wrong to apply it to the seventh day "of the week" as it has been applied by God to the first day "of the week" first by type in the Messianic feasts of Lev. 23 and Lev. 25 and by Messianic prophecy (Psa. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; heb. 4:2-11) and by Messianic example (Jn. 20; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10) and by historic custom consistenly after the aposolic age right up to BEFORE Constantine.

9. The "first day of the week" is preceded by six working days, making the "first day of the week" the seventh day Sabbath in that PATTERN of seven.

10. The permanent application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption wiht the resurrection of Christ and a BETTER sinless creation of a new heaven and earth to come that begins in the EIGHTH and eternal age to come.

====================

By contrast -

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of Godin order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER';(Exodus 20:12) and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

===========================

Once your theology gets so turned around sideways that you actually argue that to obey the Word of God over the tradition of man is "wrong" or "works of the law" or ... shouldn't that be a big red flag that "something is wrong" in your theology?

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps you misunderstood what I said.
What is moral about keeping the Sabbath?
What is immoral about breaking the Sabbath?
The Sabbath or fourth commandment, according to Exodus 31, is for the Jews. It is irrelevant to the Gentile Christian.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - at least the Baptist Confession of Faith gets that point right.

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Rev 14:12 the saints "Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

James 2- he who is guilty of breaking one - is guilty of breaking all.

At least the Baptist Confession of Faith (And Westminster Confession of Faith for some non-Baptists) gets that point right - by placing ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments in with the "moral law" of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant AND binding on all the saints to this very day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You are building a straw man argument. I have already conceded the Sabbath as defined and contained in the Levitical law of the Old Covenant has been abolished. So there is no servitude in the creation sabbath observance any more than obeying any other commandment in scripture. The Bible says that his commandments are not "grevious" and you are trying to place the creation Sabbath in a "grevious" light. I plainly spelled out the observance according to Psalm 118:24 to be a joy and delight.

Perhaps it is.
I find no command for the Gentile to keep the Sabbath.

You are making something very difficult that is quite simple. God did not make the creation Sabbath for man to do with it whatever he wishes as Genesis 2:3 says it was "set apart" or sanctified and that principle is set forth by Isaiah 53:12. It is called "the Lord's day" not "the Man's day."

The "Sabbath" and the "Lord's Day" are two different terms.
There is no "sabbath" in Genesis 2:3; neither is there any command to keep a day holy or remember it or any command at all. This is one verse that is overused, and eisegeted far too much.
You have pointed out yourself that it is one day in seven, and until the law came it could be any day; just one day in seven. The "sixth" day could have been every Wednesday. It is a "circular week."

Apply this logic to any other commandment in scripture. Apply it to the "Lord's Supper." The very word translated "Lord's" in both 1 Cor. 11:20 and Revelation 1:10 implies that both are observed in keeping with the Lord's teachings. Does that make us slaves and in servitude to the Sabbath any more than to the Lord's Supper???

The Lord's Supper is an ordinance--a command that we are to keep.
There is no command to keep the Sabbath--a Jewish ordinance. It is just not there; not in this dispensation.

Gen. 2:2-3; Psal. 118:24 ("made" same word translated "observe" in the fourth commandments; Mk. 16:9; Heb. 4;9-10; Rev. 1:10; Mk. 2:27; etc.).

Where is the command?
There is no command in Gen.2:3.
There is no command in the gospels.
There is no command in Rev.1:10
There is no command in Heb.4.
There is no command for the Gentile believer in this dispensation.

I am neither. I am not a Calvinist as I despise most of what Calvin taught. I am not a "covenant" theologian but a dispensational post-trib pre-millennialist. I am simply not a "hyper" dispensationalist. I believe in the yet future salvaiton of the whole nation of Israel and the premillennial reign of Jesus Christ on this present restored earth.

That is what I originally thought. But some of your posts in the Baptist Theology forum started me thinking that you might be Calvinist.

However, I do not believe ANY of the Ten commandments began with Israel or Mount Sinia or with the Old Covenant as you can find ALL of them prior to Mount Sinai and violated since the Genesis 4. ALL of the ten commandments are written in the heart under the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:3) and they are ALL repeated in the New Testament (James 2:10-11) because to violate ONE is to violate ALL.

But the Sabbath is never given to the Gentiles. It is not part of the moral law. There is nothing moral or immoral about keeping the Sabbath law. If one kills or steals then they have wronged another. But if they break the Sabbath they have not wronged anyone, not even God. God has not written this law on man's heart. Other laws, yes; but not the fourth commandment.

The Law was never given to save, justify, sanctify or obtain heaven for believers before or after Calvary but to instruct them in the nature of good and evil and they are still to be used for that.

Keeping the Sabbath does not show anyone the difference between good and evil. It does not fulfill the purpose of the law that you just stated. There is nothing moral or immoral about keeping this law. Why? Because it is applicable only to the Jews. It is not given to the Gentiles. You must find a clear-cut command for the Gentile to keep this command for this dispensation.

You need to study the Biblical meaning of "rest" more thoroughly as it involves more than PHYSICAL rest but SPIRITUAL rest and the idea of FELLOWSHIP with God.

Keeping the fourth commandment has nothing to do with "entering into his rest, and salvation. That is spiritualizing the Scripture a bit too much. It is true that Christ is our Sabbath. But that is not the meaning of the fourth commandment, and I think you know that.

It is a public day of physical and spiritual rest in fellowship with God. The Sabbath is more than gospel rest because all before the cross entered into gospel rest (Heb. 4:2-3) and yet observed the Sabbath. It is not fulfilled until man is redeemed in spirit, soul and body and literally enters a new creation where God can again say "It is very good" and that day has not yet come but it is still future (Heb. 4:11).

Yes it is future. That has nothing to do with today.

 

[DHK]

Hence the title of the thread.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD"

Hence - 1John 5:2-4

The entire verse is:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The context is "marital problems."

Talk about taking Scripture out of context!!

 

[DHK]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - at least the Baptist Confession of Faith gets that point right.

I can't trust what you post any more Bob.
1Cor.7:19 has nothing to do with the Baptist Confession of Faith or the Sabbath, or the Law.
It has to do with marital problems.
Try being honest with your usage of Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Perhaps it is.
I find no command for the Gentile to keep the Sabbath.

Well brother you just need to look a little more closely. Hebrews 4:9 literally states that there is a "sabbath observance" for the people of God. Psal. 118:24 not only decribes how it is to be observed but uses the same word translated "observe" that is used for the fourth Commandment Sabbath translated "made" and means "made to be observed" and it is obvious that is what it means because it immediately tells how it is to be observed " we WILL rejoice and be glad IN IT." Mark 16:9 uses Greek terms that loudly demand that the first day of the week in Mark 16:2 "mia ton sabbaton" (plural) is to be regarded as the "proto" (first in a new series) of Sabbaths "sabbatou" (singular). The Greek term "kuriakos" is used in the New Testament only twice and both in its only other use in 1 Cor. 11:20 and its secular use refers to how something is to be observed.

The "Sabbath" and the "Lord's Day" are two different terms.

Yes, but the Sabbath is the Lord's day (Gen. 2:3) in a sense that no other day is.

There is no "sabbath" in Genesis 2:3;

Your argument is with Christ (Mk. 2:27) not with me. He is referring to Genesis 2:3 and He calls it the "Sabbath."

neither is there any command to keep a day holy or remember it or any command at all. This is one verse that is overused, and eisegeted far too much.

The whole basis for Christ's response to the Pharisee is concerning the fourth commandment which has its basis in Genesis 2:3 and so again your argument is with Christ as He is arguing the correct observance of the fourth COMMMANDMENT based upon the CREATION Sabbath or at least He calls it the SABBATH.

You have pointed out yourself that it is one day in seven, and until the law came it could be any day; just one day in seven. The "sixth" day could have been every Wednesday. It is a "circular week."

Yes, that is true. However, I have also pointed out that nearly all the "Sabbaths" in the FIXED DATED Sabbaths in Leviticus 23 are found in a MESSIANIC context that anticipates the new covenant and they follow the numerical pattern of the first day of the week (1, 8,15,22,49). I also pointed out the Messianic prophech in Psalm 118:20-24 also demands the appointed and observation of such a day to commemorate God's work of resurrection. This is also reflected in Heb. 4:9-10 where a sabbath observance continues due to the finished work of a singular "he" who is identified in verse 14 as Christ and the finished work is that of Christ as our "High Priest."

Where is the command?

Psalm 118:24 there is a direct appointment and observation stated and described.

There is no command in Gen.2:3.

Jesus whole response to the fourth commandment is predicated upon Genesis 2:3 which demands that Christ viewed it as a commandment but not intended to be observed acccording to the TRADITIONS of the elders which Christ violated but according to God's intent in Genesis 2:3.

There is no command in the gospels.

.

Dr. Roy O. Beaman was regarded as the greatest Greek teacher among Southern Baptists. It was my privilege to be a close friend to him while in Seminary. I took the wording of Mark 16:9 to him and we set down and I told him of the conclusions I had come to in my research between the normal expression found in the Greek text for the "first day of the week" in Mark 16:2 in contrast to the expression used by Mark in Mark 16:9. He told me that the language did support my conclusions. If you research the use of "proto" from where we get one part our our word "prototype" it always refers to the first in a series rather than merely a numerical designation of one apart from anything else. In the TR the singular "sabbatou" is always used for the fourth commandment while the pluar is always used for the first day of the week.

There is no command in Rev.1:10

Both the Biblical and secular usage contains the idea of a correct observance and that is obvious from its use in 1 Cor. 11:20.

There is no command in Heb.4.

Hebrews 4:9 demands a present day Sabbath day keeping and it based upon Hebrews 4:10. If you would like we could start another thread just dedicated to Hebrew 4:1-14 and I believe I can prove this without question by an expositionary treatment.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - at least the Baptist Confession of Faith gets that point right.

I can't trust what you post any more Bob.
1Cor.7:19 has nothing to do with the Baptist Confession of Faith

Wrong.

The Baptist Confession of Faith - affirms the moral law of God - the Ten Commandments - which are by every Bible measure "the Commandments of God".

That is the easy part.

Pretending not to see it - is not the compelling solution you appear to have at first imagined it to be.

In any case the Baptist Confession of Faith - easily allows for 1Cor 7:19 but for you the text merely gives rise to strong objection.

1Cor.7:19 has nothing to do with the Baptist Confession of Faith
or the Sabbath, or the Law.

Sadly for your wild speculation - the text itself is contrasting the moral law of God to circumcision - not to marriage. It is arguing that whether one is free or in slavery - they should obey the moral law of God "The Commandments of God" - but that they are not obligated to obey the ceremonial laws. (in this case - ceremonial laws about circumcision).

By contrast you are simply making stuff up to pretend to be confused about the "Commandments of God" having something to do with God's "Ten Commandments" -- and then blaming it on me.

It is not working.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hence the title of the thread.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD"

Hence - 1John 5:2-4

The entire verse is:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The context is "marital problems."

Talk about taking Scripture out of context!!

The statement is about ceremonial issues such as circumcision vs the moral law of God - the "Commandments of God".

The Baptist Confession of Faith makes that same distinction -- obviously.

And in 1Cor 7 the full context for that statement is a concern about slaves vs free men - saying that ALL whether slave or free are to keep the moral law of God "the Commandments of God" but not so with the ceremonial law.

Your attempt to wrench that slavery and circumcision statement into a teaching on marriage - fails horribly because it is in the form of an "any ol excuse will do" defense for avoiding the "Commandments of God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"To obey God is legalism"?? Really??

The argument made is that it is WRONG to obey the 4th commandment as God gave it - and it is only right if you bend-wrench-break it with the eisegesis that inserts "first day" instead of "seventh day" or if you "imagine" as DHK suggests that God does not actually say "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:3 - the very day is pointed out - as the very first day following the creation of Adam - no confusion at all on Adam's part - and no waiting six days after he was created to observe the 4th commandment.

The bend-and-wrench of scripture that people are using here to avoid the very day selected in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 16 and in Ex 20 - is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - at least the Baptist Confession of Faith gets that point right.




Wrong.

The Baptist Confession of Faith - affirms the moral law of God - the Ten Commandments - which are by every Bible measure "the Commandments of God".

You fully well know that this particular confession of faith does not intepret 1 Corinthians 7:19 any where near how you do nor does it apply it like you do as the article on Justification completely repudiates your interpretation of the law and this passage. You are simply a dishonest individual who has no scruples in perverting dead men's words when their own direct application of works to justification is spelled out so clearly that even a fool can see it does not match your position. And I quote:



Chapter 11: Of Justification

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )


2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
( Romans 3:28; Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26 )


3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
( Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6; Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; Ephesians 2:7 )


4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )


5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
( Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9; John 10:28; Psalms 89:31-33; Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75 )


6. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.
( Galatians 3:9; Romans 4:22-24 )

 

[DHK]

"To obey God is legalism"?? Really??

The argument made is that it is WRONG to obey the 4th commandment as God gave it - and it is only right if you bend-wrench-break it with the eisegesis that inserts "first day" instead of "seventh day" or if you "imagine" as DHK suggests that God does not actually say "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:3 - the very day is pointed out - as the very first day following the creation of Adam - no confusion at all on Adam's part - and no waiting six days after he was created to observe the 4th commandment.

The bend-and-wrench of scripture that people are using here to avoid the very day selected in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 16 and in Ex 20 - is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

What day is pointed out in Genesis 2:3? What is that day's name. On whose calendar? The Jewish? The Arabic? Whose? Ours (Saturday--the worship of Saturn) did not come until years after. Why would the day to worship Saturn be substituted as the Sabbath? Only in your mind Bob!
There was a circle of seven days. None of them had been named.

God rested the seventh day. Perhaps the seventh day corresponded to our Tuesday. You don't know. IOW, there was no Sabbath in Genesis 2:3. The Sabbath did not come into existence until Exodus 20:7-11. That is where the command to keep the Sabbath is found. There is a law of first mention. Where is the first mention of "sabbath"? It is not in Genesis.

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hence the title of the thread.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of GOD"


The statement is about ceremonial issues such as circumcision vs the moral law of God - the "Commandments of God".

The Baptist Confession of Faith makes that same distinction -- obviously.


Bob

It obviously does not.
As I said, it is impossible to have an honest debate with you when you wrench Scripture out of its context. 1Cor.7:19 is in the midst of a chapter speaking of marital problems and you try to apply it to the Baptist Confession of Faith, and in particular the doctrine of justification. You are not even being ethical. You are dishonest.

Biblicist just finished quoting every relevant portion of that Confession that concerns Justification. That verse isn't even mentioned. Basically you have lied. You are dishonest in this debate, using Scripture out of context, and then applying it to a Baptist Confession when the Confession never used it. Try being honest. Why should people trust what you say? Give me a reason.

 

[DrJamesAch]

God actually consecrated the FIRST DAY for assemblies to Jews that were under grace BEFORE THE LAW and the Sabbath were given;


"And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you." Exodus 12:16

And guess what the first observance ceremony and its ensuing rules revolved around that began on the FIRST DAY was! A LAMB SLAIN, WITH BLOOD BEING POSTED ON THE DOORS IN THE FORM OF A CROSS. (John 1:29, Rev 5:6).

The sabbath was given as part of the law. After Christ arose, when the church is now under grace, we go back to the very same first day that was instituted to observe the lamb that was slain in the future, by remembering Him on the first day in communion by the blood and bread that symbolizes His death and our Bread of Life in Him. Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24

 

[Gup20]

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

 

[The Biblicist]

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

Yes, all the law in its connection with the OLD COVENANT has been abolished but the law was never given to save, justify or obtain eternal life in the first place but to merely instruct in sin and righteousness. Would anyone claim that "thou shalt not lie" has been abolished simply because its relationship with the OLD COVENANT has been abolished??????? The same is true for any of the ten commandments as they were observed BEFORE the giving of the OLD COVENANT and they will be observed AFTER the abolishing of the Old Covenant. That is precisely why Jesus did not go to the Levitical law under the OLD COVENANT to interpret the Sabbath but went to the PRE-Old covenant Sabbath in Genesis 2:3 (which he called the "Sabbath.") to interpret the proper application of the Sabbath under Christ.