evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to mental illness
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Topics that ruffle your feathers?
- Thread starter evenifigoalone
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evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
No one does that. No one. Comforting someone doesn't encourage suicide, we do our best to pull people away from that. I don't think anyone is saying /committing/ suicide isn't a sin, either. But heaping guilt on someone for even being in that much hurt is despicable frankly.
I've talked to suicidal people, talked them out of it. I had someone basically beg me for permission to go through with it, multiple times. I held firm that it was not and never is the answer.
If you really want me to go toe to toe with you over your scripture use, I can do that. I'd rather not have this conversation, but as a mental health advocate it is extremely important to me.
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JosephBKuzara
Member
A real Christian would not period. There is no if a real Christian did scenario.
JosephBKuzara
Member
The scriptures I provided outwieghs any of yalls attempts at interpreting that God does not sustain His children to the very end. What God started in us He will complete. But also no saint is recorded to succombing to suicide, only the ungodly are recorded committing suicide.
So suicide is not an action God's children will submit to.
Being a Christian does not make one a Superman or a Superwoman, as still can have to deal with mental and spiritual issues, and sometimes people just for whatever reason yield to the temptation to sin and do stuff really bad. Suicide would be literally allow satan to get to you and to buy into his lies that he desires to fill your mind up with!
A saint can be in such mental/physical pain though that they get stuck into thinking the wrong thing, and can do that sin....
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
I will go through your scripture references, bring up my own, and tell you why you are wrong. Though I'm not trying to convince you so much as subvert any harm you may cause to anyone who has suicidal ideation or severe depression who may read your posts.
Also, it's not so much "true Christians will never suicide" that I'm contesting, though I do disagree with that as well, as your idea that we will never face anything absolutely overwhelming, or that Christians never lose hope, or that being in such pain that you wish you would die (even if you never give in) is itself a sin. That is very harmful teaching.
It takes me time to gather my thoughts in a way that is coherent and thorough, so you will forgive me if it takes me a bit.
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Christians should never kill themselves, but the truth also ius that all of us have done sins that we ought not to do! What makes Suicide so bad is that we play God, and have no way to repent of that sin, but the good news is that Jesus saves forever those who come unto him....
Particular
Well-Known Member
You make an assertion that God does not, himself, make.
You make assumptions based upon selected texts (not kept within context) and declare you assumptions to be correct.
I will not be as dogmatic as you.
All I will say is that God has every person's appointed time of death in his hands. He will not allow someone to do something that does not fit his universal plan.
I agree that the Bible gives us no history of a person of faith committing suicide. I do not agree, however, that we can make a leap to say no Christian will ever intentionally take her/his own life.
This issue seems to be like the divorce/remarriage issue, as we all can agree that real Christians should not do either, but reality is that really saved still do those sins, so question is"is Grace of God enough?"
Particular
Well-Known Member
Correct. How all encompassing is the grace of God to his elect who fall in sin?
I believe his grace is greater than our sins (but Romans 6 clearly tells us not to abuse grace).
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
So I just learned today that I have diabetes, so it may take me longer than I planned as I am also trying to learn how to manage my condition and it's a lot of information to take in. (My Dr wants me on meds, my mom and nutritionist Aunt want me on natural supplements instead. This in addition to the lifestyle changes I need to make.) But I will get around to it, this topic is too important to me to back down from.
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I have a small question, how does a person after they have committed suicide, repent of that sin and come to Christ?... The next time you see a dead man come to Christ, let me know, I want to see it too... Suicide is a tragedy but don't pile sorrow upon sorrow to one that still belongs to Christ, although they have left this world by their own hand for another, or haven't you read in Romans
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Btw... What kind of God do you serve anyway?... I serve a God of love and compassion, seems like you serve one of retribution... Brother Glen
evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
So let's unpack this.
Romans 5:2-5 & Romans 8:28, I don't feel are contradictory to my position. In fact, it matches my own experience with suffering quite well. I believe that the depression, addiction, I went through happened so that I could encourage and help others in similar positions, as well as be a voice for people who deal with those things.
I would actually point you to verse 8 of 2 Cor. 1:
8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters,[a] about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
Despairing of life sounds to me, a lot like losing hope. Even if only for a time, it sounds like hope was at the very least extremely difficult to hold onto. Which brings us straight into the next point.
But anyways. That's anecdote. Still, anecdotes aren't completely useless.....our testimonies are basically anecdotes, are they not?
Onto your scripture references.
I would suggest that 1 Cor. 1:8, Phil. 1:6 refers to salvation....not mental health, or suicide.
1 Peter....not much to comment on either way. It's only saying that God will offer us help, which He does.
The Psalm references might support your primary point, though I would argue that just because someone doesn't rely on God "enough" or whatever....doesn't mean they aren't saved. I tend to believe that salvation deals with all our sins, past, present, and future....and so even if we are unable to repent after killing ourselves, because we're already dead obviously, doesn't mean salvation is lost.
Let me say this: I was closest to God when I lived with chronic depression. It made me have to rely on Him just to get by, because my own strength wasn't enough.
I'd yield that planning to carry out suicide is sin, and actually attempting, sure. But not simply being in the state of mind where you're in so much pain you want to die.
Perhaps what this verse is saying is....one will continue to fight their sinful urges, and never stop trying. Which may support your primary position. But it also could just mean that one who is saved will continually have the new man fighting the old man....not that the old man won't get us sometimes, and not that that can't result in un-dobable consequences. YMMV.
For your reasoning involving the verses' use of the word "coward" and concluding that those who do commit suicide are prime examples of such cowardice....here is what Bible commentary has to say on it:
Revelation 21:8 Commentaries: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
"The reverse side of the picture (cf. Revelation 20:12-15 and below on Revelation 21:27): a black list of those who have not conquered. δειλοῖς = “cowards” or apostates, who deny Christ in the persecution and worship Caesar (Introd. § 6) through fear of suffering; “δειλία does not of course itself allow that it is timorous, but would shelter its timidity under the more honourable title of εὐλάβεια” (Trench, Synonyms, § x.). It embraces further all those who draw back under the general strain of ridicule and social pressure (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 4:16, etc.), like Bunyan’s Pliable, but unlike his Mr. Fearing (cf. 1Ma 3:16).—"
For our brothers and sisters who deal with suicidal depression, they need words of comfort and encouragement, rather than condemnation.....believe me, depressed people beat themselves up enough already, and are already likely to think themselves guilty of something, whether they are or not.. And yes, encouragment should include reminding them that their hope, their comfort is in God.
First off, I assume you realize that just because a verse talks about hope, does not mean it's in context for the argument you're making. Acts 24:15, Romans 8:24, fall under this. Luke 9:23-25, Colossians 1:29, I would also argue are out of context for this argument.
Romans 5:2-5 & Romans 8:28, I don't feel are contradictory to my position. In fact, it matches my own experience with suffering quite well. I believe that the depression, addiction, I went through happened so that I could encourage and help others in similar positions, as well as be a voice for people who deal with those things.
I would actually point you to verse 8 of 2 Cor. 1:
8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters,[a] about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many.
Despairing of life sounds to me, a lot like losing hope. Even if only for a time, it sounds like hope was at the very least extremely difficult to hold onto. Which brings us straight into the next point.
My experience is the opposite, that God allows us to come to the end of ourselves, the end of our own strength, where we are sometimes completely and thoroughly in over our heads, until we are forced to rely on Him. Seems like every time God has brought me back, it's been from the edge. When I was under addiction, I was at rock bottom for at least a month before God intervened in any way that I could tell. (Long story short, He finally gave me the strength to resist my withdrawal symptoms long enough to escape the hold addiction had on me. Withdrawal was still hell on Earth, but I was able to power through it.)
But anyways. That's anecdote. Still, anecdotes aren't completely useless.....our testimonies are basically anecdotes, are they not?
Onto your scripture references.
I would suggest that 1 Cor. 1:8, Phil. 1:6 refers to salvation....not mental health, or suicide.
1 Peter....not much to comment on either way. It's only saying that God will offer us help, which He does.
The Psalm references might support your primary point, though I would argue that just because someone doesn't rely on God "enough" or whatever....doesn't mean they aren't saved. I tend to believe that salvation deals with all our sins, past, present, and future....and so even if we are unable to repent after killing ourselves, because we're already dead obviously, doesn't mean salvation is lost.
Even believers go through periods where they find hope to be lacking....and depression is literally a disease that makes your brain depleted of serotonin, the chemical that makes the happy feelings.
Let me say this: I was closest to God when I lived with chronic depression. It made me have to rely on Him just to get by, because my own strength wasn't enough.
I would put forth, again, that being suicidal is a state of mind, and it's not one you can just snap out of. It's the wish for the pain to end, and your mind thinks the only solution, the easiest solution, is death. I wouldn't say that's sin. I wouldn't say it's cowardly....if anything, it's bravery, persisting despite your brain telling you you have no other option but death.
I'd yield that planning to carry out suicide is sin, and actually attempting, sure. But not simply being in the state of mind where you're in so much pain you want to die.
See, I have difficulty with this verse in general. Because....who doesn't have some ongoing sin of some sort in their life? We sin daily.
Perhaps what this verse is saying is....one will continue to fight their sinful urges, and never stop trying. Which may support your primary position. But it also could just mean that one who is saved will continually have the new man fighting the old man....not that the old man won't get us sometimes, and not that that can't result in un-dobable consequences. YMMV.
If someone committs suicide, the only conclusion we can come to is that they were suffering tremendously. As I have demonstrated, being Christian does not make one immune to being overwhelmed. And in suicide, there is always a choice....one can choose to keep going, despite their suffering, and one can choose to give in. The feelings that lead to suicide aren't sinful, but choosing suicide is. They could have kept going. I know free will is controversial, but I am a believer in it, and I don't believe God forces us to make the correct decisions all the time.
You're saying people who are suicidal are weak and cowardly, I say they are weak, yet also strong, and brave....
For your reasoning involving the verses' use of the word "coward" and concluding that those who do commit suicide are prime examples of such cowardice....here is what Bible commentary has to say on it:
Revelation 21:8 Commentaries: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
"The reverse side of the picture (cf. Revelation 20:12-15 and below on Revelation 21:27): a black list of those who have not conquered. δειλοῖς = “cowards” or apostates, who deny Christ in the persecution and worship Caesar (Introd. § 6) through fear of suffering; “δειλία does not of course itself allow that it is timorous, but would shelter its timidity under the more honourable title of εὐλάβεια” (Trench, Synonyms, § x.). It embraces further all those who draw back under the general strain of ridicule and social pressure (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 4:16, etc.), like Bunyan’s Pliable, but unlike his Mr. Fearing (cf. 1Ma 3:16).—"
For our brothers and sisters who deal with suicidal depression, they need words of comfort and encouragement, rather than condemnation.....believe me, depressed people beat themselves up enough already, and are already likely to think themselves guilty of something, whether they are or not.. And yes, encouragment should include reminding them that their hope, their comfort is in God.
JosephBKuzara
Member
as your idea that we will never face anything absolutely overwhelming
I believe saints can undergo depression but because of Gods purpose by His working in us, a saint will never be so overwhelmed that they succomb to suicide.
Or that Christians never lose hope,
a Christian will not lose Hope in God and His promises as why we are given the Spirit as a garantee of such promises. but a saint
could lose hope in other things, as for example , ever convincing someone of the truth in hoping they would repent and or be saved by God.
or that being in such pain that you wish you would die (even if you never give in) is itself a sin.
Never said a saint couldn't wish to leave through death or even see it as far better to be home with the Lord in spirit than to remain alive on earth.(Paul the apostle felt this way and I don't see that as sinful)
I appealed to Elijah in my first post,who was so depressed , discouraged and sorrowful in thinking he was the last saint on earth, He requested God to take his life. But such a request is not of a suicidal attempt. God refused his request though to then decide to restore and establish Elijah to strengthen him before ultimately providing him a successor through Elisha.
Again I stand by what I believe scripture is conveying. Many will not believe me even though there is not one depressed saint ever following through with suicide recorded in scripture. But only of the ungodly, there is a reason for that and thus serves as a pattern of what not to do while also encouraging saints that God is faithful to help us endure to the end.
Following through with Suicide( a bad fruit) is one authentication of those being not of thet faith thus are left under sin having no God and no hope in this world.
You may try to read suicide into some saints recorded in scripture as others have in trying to save face but your interpretation will be flawed.
Any professed christian who succombed to the act of suicide never embraced the true Gospel. And those who recieve another Gospel other than what Paul taught were self-condemned being of those appointed to disobey the Gospel.
And why after being enlightened, such fell away from the faith not being able to come to granted repentance.
How many people do you know of or know personally that killed themselves while embracing a false works gospel and or a false gospel that potrays Jesus as becoming the embodiment of sin to then become spiritually dead, separated from the GodHead loosing his Sonship to then die in our place of wrath as wicked in Father's eyes being abandoned at death?
Millions believe either or of these two types of false gospels! And many have succumbed to suicide while embracing such heresies. Thus succombing to suicide while self-condemned even if they sincerely believed they were of the Faith.
Saints will rejoice in suffering and continually filled with the Spirit to strengthen us and embolden us to endure Father's discipine and scourging leading to further suffering in righteous obedience to the very point that we are willing to resist sin having our own blood be shed as a disciple of Christ just as Jesus underwent, our source as to why we in His righteousness undergo loving discipline and scourging being received as a ligit child as Jesus who while righteous voluntarily for our sins learned obedience by what He suffered by such corrective discipline even obedience unto the pole.
The great tribulation will be like no other hardship any saint have faced up to this point yet they won't seek suicide but be willing to die by the hands of the enemy while upholding the testimony of Jesus.
I believe saints can undergo depression but because of Gods purpose by His working in us, a saint will never be so overwhelmed that they succomb to suicide.
Or that Christians never lose hope,
a Christian will not lose Hope in God and His promises as why we are given the Spirit as a garantee of such promises. but a saint
could lose hope in other things, as for example , ever convincing someone of the truth in hoping they would repent and or be saved by God.
or that being in such pain that you wish you would die (even if you never give in) is itself a sin.
Never said a saint couldn't wish to leave through death or even see it as far better to be home with the Lord in spirit than to remain alive on earth.(Paul the apostle felt this way and I don't see that as sinful)
I appealed to Elijah in my first post,who was so depressed , discouraged and sorrowful in thinking he was the last saint on earth, He requested God to take his life. But such a request is not of a suicidal attempt. God refused his request though to then decide to restore and establish Elijah to strengthen him before ultimately providing him a successor through Elisha.
Again I stand by what I believe scripture is conveying. Many will not believe me even though there is not one depressed saint ever following through with suicide recorded in scripture. But only of the ungodly, there is a reason for that and thus serves as a pattern of what not to do while also encouraging saints that God is faithful to help us endure to the end.
Following through with Suicide( a bad fruit) is one authentication of those being not of thet faith thus are left under sin having no God and no hope in this world.
You may try to read suicide into some saints recorded in scripture as others have in trying to save face but your interpretation will be flawed.
Any professed christian who succombed to the act of suicide never embraced the true Gospel. And those who recieve another Gospel other than what Paul taught were self-condemned being of those appointed to disobey the Gospel.
And why after being enlightened, such fell away from the faith not being able to come to granted repentance.
How many people do you know of or know personally that killed themselves while embracing a false works gospel and or a false gospel that potrays Jesus as becoming the embodiment of sin to then become spiritually dead, separated from the GodHead loosing his Sonship to then die in our place of wrath as wicked in Father's eyes being abandoned at death?
Millions believe either or of these two types of false gospels! And many have succumbed to suicide while embracing such heresies. Thus succombing to suicide while self-condemned even if they sincerely believed they were of the Faith.
Saints will rejoice in suffering and continually filled with the Spirit to strengthen us and embolden us to endure Father's discipine and scourging leading to further suffering in righteous obedience to the very point that we are willing to resist sin having our own blood be shed as a disciple of Christ just as Jesus underwent, our source as to why we in His righteousness undergo loving discipline and scourging being received as a ligit child as Jesus who while righteous voluntarily for our sins learned obedience by what He suffered by such corrective discipline even obedience unto the pole.
The great tribulation will be like no other hardship any saint have faced up to this point yet they won't seek suicide but be willing to die by the hands of the enemy while upholding the testimony of Jesus.
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evenifigoalone
Well-Known Member
Hey, I got work in the morning and even though I want to stay awake a while longer, these responses take effort, so I'll wait until a more convenient time and more intellectually available time for me to respond (like, tomorrow evening, probably). If there's even a pressing need to anymore.
You misread my posts, as I was just saying that the grace of God will cover even that sin!I have a small question, how does a person after they have committed suicide, repent of that sin and come to Christ?... The next time you see a dead man come to Christ, let me know, I want to see it too... Suicide is a tragedy but don't pile sorrow upon sorrow to one that still belongs to Christ, although they have left this world by their own hand for another, or haven't you read in Romans
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Btw... What kind of God do you serve anyway?... I serve a God of love and compassion, seems like you serve one of retribution... Brother Glen
Christians can experience depression, chemical imbalances, even heavy demonic oppression!
We all would agree that a Christian should never choose suicide, but we should never choose to do any sinning, so is the Grace of God sufficient even in those circumstances after the sin is committed?