true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"I believe" God CAN do whatsoever he will, "I do not believe" he will save someone without faith and belief.

Buzzer....Wrong. He saved me. :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Personally I don't like the term 'allow' as it has various connotations and in this sense it will most always be negative.
However the 'allow' I am speaking to is the same as an exhausted man in the ocean, nearly drowning, when he rescuer arrives to save him.
The rescuer can not save him, without potential harm to either, if the man does not wish to be saved, or understands that this person is not here to finish him off.
Thus the drowning man must allow or yield or submit.. but in all cases it is done in conjunction or cooperation with his desire and not (for this analogy) a part from it.
Just as God does not save a part from one's willingness to be saved.

So IF God does it all and man nothing (100% God) and that were true then God does not need man to believe IN ORDER TO save him.

Why does God change mans nature in your view... ie.. to make him willing.
Why.. because God will not save man a part from man being willing to be saved.. ie allow God TO save him.

Otherwise God does not need, desire, or care if man believes or not IN ORDER TO save him. The point is.. and you can't get around it.. God makes man willing for a reason.

Even in the reformed view, mans salvation hinges upon him being willing.. which is nothing more than saying He wants to be saved.. willing to allow God to save him.. and any other variation you want to say it as. Thus the reformed or Calvinistic view is in fact, synergistic by their own definition.
Why? Because God will not (thus can not) save man a part from him being willing and therefore (in light of this) man cooperates in his salvation.

Remember I'm not Reformed, I'm PB. And I don't know why he does what he does but I know this, that I did not want to be saved & he had to change me totally before I would accept him. Sin was my god, not God. He has to change me, make new the sinful man before he will accept....not stand there and wait for someone to accept Him, that would never occur. Pardon the pun but your analogy is all wet.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Allan states..

"So IF God does it all and man nothing (100% God) and that were true then God does not need man to believe IN ORDER TO save him."

Right, now your getting it!:godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent analogy. God provides grace, but man must cooperate with it. Only God can give life and cause crops to grow, but man must till the soil and prepare it. Only then does God cause the crops to grow.

And no farmer would believe his own labor caused the crops to grow, but would give thanks to God for a good crop.

Are you telling me here that God needs you (Man)? your kidding right!

 

[Bro. James]

I did MY part, now God, you do yours...

We do err not knowing the depravity of man as it relates to the Grace of God. While it is true we have a "free" will to choose, we have not the ability to choose wisely. Our wills are enslaved to our nature which is depraved to uttermost. Without God showing us the path, we will never find it--surely not on Mars Hill.

Ephesians 2: 8-10, " For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Everything one needs for salvation is provided by God--including faith. This is what GRACE is all about. We deserve: death and destruction with eternal separation from our creator, which is exactly what we have--without Jesus; yet He gives us eternal life with Him--through Christ Jesus.

I(me and myself) have decided. I(me and myself) have made a decision... We think somehow we have found Jesus, when in fact He found us--in the pit.

Amazing.

Peace.

Bro. James

P.S. These observations did not come from the Book of Chauvin.

 

[Robert Snow]

Unless a person is willing to come to Christ, God is helpless to do anything to effect their salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

If this is addressed to me, I have presented many scriptures that showed that is US who MUST REPENT of OUR sins, and that God WILL NOT REPENT for us!! Not yelling, just for emphasis only.

The way the other side(DoG) "doles" it out, it is nothing more than a glorified "shotgun wedding". A wedding involves two willing people. When God saves us, we are then married to Jesus, and are the Lamb's wife, that John saw coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for Her Husband.

And as far as words such as "allow", "permission"/"permit", they have a negative connotation to them. God doesn't come to us and say, "Excuse Me, but if it's okay with you, I'd like to save your soul. Is this okay with you??" No one from either side of this debate will concur with this either. Grace is "extended" to all, and those who WILLINGLY accept it, will be saved. Those who REJECT it, will die lost. Its that cut and dried.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Unless a person is willing to come to Christ, God is helpless to do anything to effect their salvation.

"God is helpless." That is a hallmark of your theology.

 

[quantumfaith]

Unless a person is willing to come to Christ, God is helpless to do anything to effect their salvation.

Robert, pay no attention to the rantings, just dismiss as an infantile shot across the bow.

 

[Rippon]

Robert, pay no attention to the rantings, just dismiss as an infantile shot across the bow.

So do you agree or disagree with the proposition that God is helpless --to "effect salvation" or anything else?

 

[preacher4truth]

No is my answer to the OP.

God did all of the saving. In fact, He gave us the faith we have. (I know some of you think you had it yourselves, inherently, which is against Scripture.) You didn't. We have nothing but what we have received. 1 Cor. 4:7.

It is all to God's Glory. All of it.

Some want to make it like thay had some ability and part in saving themselves. This, too, is contrary to Scripture.

Arminians and the like (who won't title themselves as such, but nonetheless are in doctrine and belief) believe God is Sovereign. Until He is. Then they buck.

Calvinists (and those who belive this way, rejecting the title) believe He is. Period. And that He is Just in being Who He is.

Those who don't believe thus cry "that's unfair" as though we have some rights concerning this.

Bottom line? We don't.

 

[psalms109:31]

analogy

That analogy tells me lambs don't know when to lye down, when to eat, where to eat, when to drink. When to find shade. That lambs depend on the shepherd.

That analogy is for the Peter's in the world. Those who have been called to work in the field, feed His lambs. It is not 100% God you are apart of the plan. A good shepherd uses sheep to bring in the lost lambs.

When we work on what we have been given not bury it, we are given more.

 

[Allan]

Remember I'm not Reformed, I'm PB. And I don't know why he does what he does but I know this, that I did not want to be saved & he had to change me totally before I would accept him. Sin was my god, not God. He has to change me, make new the sinful man before he will accept....not stand there and wait for someone to accept Him, that would never occur. Pardon the pun but your analogy is all wet.

Yes, I know your position EWF. Remember I was first addressing Dr. Bob and then your statement about Dr. Bob's post. So actually I was addressing 'his' (the Cal / Reformed) position, which includes man having to believe in order to be saved.

As I have said often on the BB, I believe the only real Monergistic system (whereby God actually does it all) is that which the PB's hold. God saves man irregardless of faith.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That analogy tells me lambs don't know when to lye down, when to eat, where to eat, when to drink. When to find shade. That lambs depend on the shepherd.

That analogy is for the Peter's in the world. Those who have been called to work in the field, feed His lambs. It is not 100% God you are apart of the plan. A good shepherd uses sheep to bring in the lost lambs.

When we work on what we have been given not bury it, we are given more.

I dont know what your talking about..... hows that for being sheep like. :laugh:

Now Peter tried to walk on water & he fell in....so much for mans having faith & pure belief. He got wet too.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

No is my answer to the OP.

God did all of the saving. In fact, He gave us the faith we have. (I know some of you think you had it yourselves, inherently, which is against Scripture.) You didn't. We have nothing but what we have received. 1 Cor. 4:7.

It is all to God's Glory. All of it.

Some want to make it like thay had some ability and part in saving themselves. This, too, is contrary to Scripture.

Arminians and the like (who won't title themselves as such, but nonetheless are in doctrine and belief) believe God is Sovereign. Until He is. Then they buck.

Calvinists (and those who belive this way, rejecting the title) believe He is. Period. And that He is Just in being Who He is.

Those who don't believe thus cry "that's unfair" as though we have some rights concerning this.

Bottom line? We don't.

This is error. The scriptures repeatedly show the unregenerate have the ability to believe or trust, do a word search of the word "trust" and see for yourself. Jesus said the unregenerate Jews trusted in Moses (Jn 5:45), speaking of trusting in the works of the law. Unregenerate man's problem is not lack of ability to believe, but trusting in their own righteousness instead of trusting on Christ.

Even dumb sheep can trust, Jesus said they know their shepherd's voice, and will flee from a stranger.

All abilities we have, whether regenerate or unregenerate come from God, so this is another false argument.

Saying the scriptures teach unregenerate man cannot believe is utterly false and refuted by many scriptures.

 

[psalms109:31]

Power of God

I dont know what your talking about..... hows that for being sheep like. :laugh:

Now Peter tried to walk on water & he fell in....so much for mans having faith & pure belief. He got wet too.:smilewinkgrin:

It is such a hard thing for man to do powered by the Holy Spirit keeping their focus on Christ and to do what God had called him to do?

 

[Winman]

I dont know what your talking about..... hows that for being sheep like. :laugh:

Now Peter tried to walk on water & he fell in....so much for mans having faith & pure belief. He got wet too.:smilewinkgrin:

Wait a minute, Peter was a believer, so according to you he got his faith from God. Did God give Peter a defective faith that failed?

See, this is what happens when your doctrine is unscriptural, you paint yourself into a corner.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Excellent analogy. God provides grace, but man must cooperate with it.

That is a fundamental difference in how "grace" (man does NOTHING or it is no longer "grace") is perceived.

States the difference between calvinistic and semi-pelagian thinking quite well.

God regenerates/saves man by grace alone without works
or
God regenerates/saves man only if man cooperates with God.

 

[webdog]

So do you agree or disagree with the proposition that God is helpless --to "effect salvation" or anything else?

Hes helpless in going against his very nature and decrees...you disagree?

 

[psalms109:31]

Emotion

Men emotionally want to hide in a corner and don't want to do anything thinking it will take away from the grace of God.

God tells us to trust in God is not work, if it is not work than it does not take away from the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith. This faith tells us, teaches us that the wages of our sin is death a debt we cannot pay. We are saved by grace, because you didn't have to pay it, so just trust in Jesus.

What we can do, is do what God has called us to do and then give Him the glory for without Him we can't do anything.

We are saved by grace through faith, the faith that was given to us by God through the word about Jesus and His word, so trust in Him.