true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!

[Winman]

That is a fundamental difference in how "grace" (man does NOTHING or it is no longer "grace") is perceived.

States the difference between calvinistic and semi-pelagian thinking quite well.

God regenerates/saves man by grace alone without works
or
God regenerates/saves man only if man cooperates with God.

Yes, and scripture shows man must cooperate with God's grace.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This passage is speaking of persons who have received God's grace. They have been enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the word of God and the powers of the world to come. They have been brought to the point of repentance, but have fallen away in unbelief.

And then the writer compares these persons to the earth, as Jesus compared those who heard the word of God to ground in the parable of sower.

It shows earth that has been rained upon by God, it has been dressed, and that it is expected to bring forth good fruit.

But that earth that brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, nigh to be cursed or damned, and it's end is to be burned.

This is also similar to the parable of the talents, where one man is given five talents and earns five more, another is given two talents and earns two more, and the last is given one talent. This person does not use his talent to earn more but buries it in the earth. When the lord of those servants returned he praised those servants who used the talents (grace) given them and earned more. He was angry at the servant who hid his talent in the earth and did not utilize it. He gave his talent to the first servant, and cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And we see this parable regards salvation, for Jesus directly proceeds to tell us of sheep and goats. The sheep are those who utilize the grace given them, the goats are those who foolishly waste the grace given them.

We do not earn God's grace, but we are expected to receive it and make use of it. If not, that which was given shall be taken away.

 

[Iconoclast]

"God is helpless." That is a hallmark of your theology.

Good post Rippon....unless he is describing Dagon.....

1 Samuel 5

1And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.

2When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.

3And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
4And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.

Here is a helpless god......that is not the God of the scripture however.

Good posts , DR.Bob, Preacher for truth, EWF.:thumbs:


Allan, you said in your analogy......the man in the water "was drowning"
You error here. The man in the water drowned already...as in dead man floating.....Jesus gives him life...then he does what the Spirit works in him:thumbsup:

Preacher for truth....well said;

No is my answer to the OP.

God did all of the saving. In fact, He gave us the faith we have. (I know some of you think you had it yourselves, inherently, which is against Scripture.) You didn't. We have nothing but what we have received. 1 Cor. 4:7.

It is all to God's Glory. All of it.

Some want to make it like thay had some ability and part in saving themselves. This, too, is contrary to Scripture.

Arminians and the like (who won't title themselves as such, but nonetheless are in doctrine and belief) believe God is Sovereign. Until He is. Then they buck.
Calvinists (and those who belive this way, rejecting the title) believe He is. Period. And that He is Just in being Who He is.
Those who don't believe thus cry "that's unfair" as though we have some rights concerning this.Bottom line? We don't.

 

[Robert Snow]

Robert, pay no attention to the rantings, just dismiss as an infantile shot across the bow.

It is predictable; however, just like Rippon being the author is also predictable.

The thing I did not include in my posting is that God is helpless only because He chooses to be. God has the power and ability to intervene and force anyone to do anything He chooses. That isn't the issue, allowing man to choose is the issue. God desires man to love him and this requires man having free will.

 

[quantumfaith]

It is predictable; however, just like Rippon being the author is also predictable.

The thing I did not include in my posting is that God is helpless only because He chooses to be. God has the power and ability to intervene and force anyone to do anything He chooses. That isn't the issue, allowing man to choose is the issue. God desires man to love him and this requires man having free will.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

Job 33: 1 “But now, Job, listen to my words;
pay attention to everything I say.
2 I am about to open my mouth;
my words are on the tip of my tongue.
3 My words come from an upright heart;
my lips sincerely speak what I know.
4 The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 38
15 But what can I say?
He has spoken to me, and he himself has done this.
I will walk humbly all my years
because of this anguish of my soul.
16 Lord, by such things people live;
and my spirit finds life in them too.
You restored me to health
and let me live.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 5 :
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

[Winman]

God is never powerless, but he is limited by his own decree, that he will not bless man's unbelief.

Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

God REQUIRES faith from us. No faith, no salvation. No faith, no healing. No faith, no receiving wisdom. Without faith, we cannot expect to receive any thing from God.

Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

It is not that God is powerless, it is that we have not shown the required faith. God will not bless a man who does not believe.

So, you misrepresent what we believe. I never believe God is powerless, I believe what the scriptures say, that God will not give anything to an unbeliever, except the common grace to believe to salvation, all men are shown that.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[webdog]

God is powerless to lie and sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wait a minute, Peter was a believer, so according to you he got his faith from God. Did God give Peter a defective faith that failed?

See, this is what happens when your doctrine is unscriptural, you paint yourself into a corner.

Peter was.....oh never mind...... you [Snip - please don't attack personally]

 

[webdog]

Peter was.....oh never mind...... you [snip]

Its a fair question, it should be answered (while not attacking the one asking the question). A non-response is concession to the point.

 

[Winman]

Peter was.....oh never mind...... you [snip].

We are told after Jesus's first miracle that his disciples (except Judas) believed on him.

Jo 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

This was after Jesus turned water into wine, his very first miracle. This is when the disciples except Judas believed. So, we know for a fact that Peter was a believer when he tried to walk on water.

And it WAS Peter's faith. Look what the Lord said to him.

Mat 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Why would Jesus rebuke Peter if Peter's weak faith was a gift from God? Wouldn't Jesus be aware that Peter had weak faith? Whose fault would it be that Peter had weak faith?

Why would Jesus pray that Peter's faith fail not?

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Why did Jesus even say "thy faith" if it was not Peter's faith? If it is so scriptural and important to know that a man's faith is from God, then why do the scriptures repeatedly ascribe faith to men?

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Are we saved to believe? No, Jesus said this woman's faith saved her.

So, if it is so doctrinally important to understand men cannot have faith, the Lord Jesus himself sure made many statements that makes it appear man can and do have faith. If he were here on earth today, you Calvinists would call Jesus a heretic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Abstract to the Doctrine of Salvation
as Advocated by
The Primitive Baptists

Natural man, being unreceptive to spiritual things, would invariably resist the spiritual birth if he could. The quickening power of God's Spirit must therefore be irresistibly imposed. This reasoning is confirmed by the fact that the scriptures consistently describe salvation as being the result of God's will and not of man's (Jn 1:11-13, Jn 5:21, Rom 9:11-16, 2Tim 1:9-10, Heb 10:7-10).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 9:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Winman]

John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

How does this help you? Verse 11 says some received him not. And notice they were "his own", the elect! It says this twice!

Verse 12 says that to those who received him, that is, believed on his name, to them gave he power to BECOME the sons of God. So, they had to receive him before they were regenerated.

Verse 13 is simply saying this new birth is of God, man has no supernatural power to regenerate himself, this power is from God. And the gospel was all God's idea and method to save man. No man conceived or invented the gospel, man would never conceive the gospel in a million years.

But you can't ignore verses 11 and 12 which show man either rejects or receives Christ, that a man must make a choice.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is error. The scriptures repeatedly show the unregenerate have the ability to believe or trust, do a word search of the word "trust" and see for yourself. Jesus said the unregenerate Jews trusted in Moses (Jn 5:45), speaking of trusting in the works of the law. Unregenerate man's problem is not lack of ability to believe, but trusting in their own righteousness instead of trusting on Christ.

Even dumb sheep can trust, Jesus said they know their shepherd's voice, and will flee from a stranger.

All abilities we have, whether regenerate or unregenerate come from God, so this is another false argument.

Saying the scriptures teach unregenerate man cannot believe is utterly false and refuted by many scriptures.

Friend,

You do greatly err. We are not talking of trusting in the law, or works of the Law, but in faith unto eternal life, which is a gift in itself, as in Romans 12, Php. 1:19, and many other passages.

God gave us this saving faith, it is not inherent, it is plainly a gift. Also, again, 1 Cor. 4:7.

Not knowing the distinction between these, you make a grave error. Thus your proof texts fall short, and you are not even speaking of the same subject, or of the saving faith that is His gift.

This is saving faith, which is a gift, not a conventional and general trust in something.

How you mix up faith the gift with trust in general is amazing.

By the way, the "sheep" you try to speak of, that know His voice, were already His, before the foundation of the world. Therefore they know His Voice, as He had already chosen them. Others, who are not His sheep (already determined) do not listen to Him. Why? Because they are not His sheep, as He said.

Paul came to realize in Galatians 1:15, that God had already chose Him long before Jesus made him to realize this in Acts 9 on the road to Damascus.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How does this help you? Verse 11 says some received him not. And notice they were "his own", the elect! It says this twice!

Verse 12 says that to those who received him, that is, believed on his name, to them gave he power to BECOME the sons of God. So, they had to receive him before they were regenerated.

Verse 13 is simply saying this new birth is of God, man has no supernatural power to regenerate himself, this power is from God. And the gospel was all God's idea and method to save man. No man conceived or invented the gospel, man would never conceive the gospel in a million years.

But you can't ignore verses 11 and 12 which show man either rejects or receives Christ, that a man must make a choice.

You & I read scripture & get two different understandings obviously. first I do not ignore anything in scripture, that is why I posted it. But Im also looking at the bottom line.... tell me about that one.

 

[Winman]

Friend,

You do greatly err. We are not talking of trusting in the law, or works of the Law, but in faith unto eternal life, which is a gift in itself, as in Romans 12, Php. 1:19, and many other passages.

God gave us this saving faith, it is not inherent, it is plainly a gift. Also, again, 1 Cor. 4:7.

Not knowing the distinction between these, you make a grave error. Thus your proof texts fall short, and are not even speaking of the same subject, or of the saving faith that is His gift.

This is saving faith, which is a gift, not a conventional and general trust in something.


How yo mix up faith the gift with trust in general is amazing.

Baloney.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This word "trust" is elpizo in the Greek. This very same word is used to explain what faith is in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Go to your concordance, the word "trust" in John 5:45 is translated "things hoped for" in Hebrews 11:1, the verse most famous for defining what faith is!

You are the one making a distinction where none exists. You have absolutely no scripture to support there are different kinds of faith, this is an invention of man, and an unscriptural one at that.

Show me where the scriptures say there are different kinds of faith.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Its a fair question, it should be answered (while not attacking the one asking the question). A non-response is concession to the point.

Ah no it isnt.....its a frustration .....there is a difference. (So before I become agitated & start turning nasty)

 

[preacher4truth]

Baloney.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This word "trust" is elpizo in the Greek. This very same word is used to explain what faith is in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Go to your concordance, the word "trust" in John 5:45 is translated "things hoped for" in Hebrews 11:1 the verse most famous for defining what faith is!

You are the one making a distinction where none exists. You have absolutely no scripture to support there are different kinds of faith, this is an invention of man, and an unscriptural one at that.

Show me where the scriptures say there are different kinds of faith.

I know this is hard for you.

"Faith COMES BY HEARING (you didn't have it in you) and hearing BY THE WORD OF CHRIST." Romans 10:17.

He gave the faith as a gift. I have given you ample Scriptures that you can never refute proving saving faith a gift. Period.

It is not mere mental acknowledgment, nor mere mental assention, as you describe and claim yourself to have. It is rather His gift.

There are definitely different kinds of faith. Saving faith, false faith, dead faith, and the faith in Mt. 8:10 that Jesus used, as to make a distinction between it and the the type of faith you lay claim to that Israel had in the works of the Law. That's two different types of faith, friend. Also temporary faith (mental assention) hypocritical faith. And on and on.

So you do yet err again. There are different types of faith in Scripture. Aren't there? :wavey:

Wine is also one word. Were there not different types of wine, scholar?

You have nothing that was not given you.

Not a thing.

Now go eat that baloney sammich I gave back to you. :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

You & I read scripture & get two different understandings obviously. first I do not ignore anything in scripture, that is why I posted it. But Im also looking at the bottom line.... tell me about that one.

I explained verse 13. God is the only one who can regenerate a person. God only has the supernatural power.

Man cannot be saved by blood, that is, he cannot inherit salvation from his parents as some religions teach. The flesh cannot will salvation. Now, this is more difficult to explain, but what it means is that the flesh will always seek to save itself. The natural man without revelation from God will always attempt to save himself through good works. All one has to do is observe all the religions of man, they all teach (except true Christianity) that a man can save himself. This is what the flesh will will to do.

That doesn't mean that a man cannot be enlightened and taught the truth. Once a man has been taught the truth by God, then he can trust in Christ. But man would never conceive of this without the revelation of God. And man cannot will himself to be born again, he has no power to regenerate himself, he is utterly dependent on God who alone has the power to regenerate and make a man spiritually alive.

I can't explain it much better than this. Verses 11, 12, and 13 all go together, you can't pull verse 13 out of context. Verse 11 shows men can reject Christ, verse 12 shows that man can receive Christ, and if he does so God will regenerate or give the power to become a son of God to that person who believes on Christ. That alone shows faith precedes regeneration. Verse 13 is explaining that this regeneration is 100% of God, man has no power or ability to regenerate himself.

Edit- It is kind of like this, I can plant a seed, and the seed will grow. But it is only God who can give that seed life and make it grow. I have no power whatsoever to give life to that seed or make it grow.

And this is what the parable of the sower is explaining. The seed is the word of God and already has life within itself. But the seed must be planted in good soil to grow properly and produce fruit. That soil is us, it is speaking of our heart and how we either incline ourselves toward God or reject him. The wayside is hard ground that the seed cannot penetrate. This is someone hardened through sin, but especially pride. They do not want to believe they are evil, they do not want to believe they need God. The other two soils are rocky and thorny, they let either persecution or the pleasures of this world interfere with God's word and do not produce fruit. The good soil is those persons who sincerely hear and listen to God's words. They incline themselves toward him. God will give these persons more grace and they will grow and produce fruit.

But the life is from God. No man makes a seed alive, only God can give life.