glfredrick
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He did me...
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true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!
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He did me...
preacher4truth
Active Member
Paul kicked against the goads. 'nuff said.
How else would one describe something that nobody has a choice whether to do it or not? If I do something because God made me do it, or I do not do someting because God made me not do it, how can that action be described any other way but forced?
glfredrick
New Member
"Forced" is what one might call a "weasel word" in debate parlance. It is an emotionally loaded term intended to convey some form of power over a less-than-willing participant, but the word "force" does not really convey what it is that God does, so it is not in fact a truthful expression nor is it really a useful way to describe what it is that God does in the issue of salvation.
Take Paul's experience on the Damascus Road for instance. Most people would agree that the salvation of Paul was all God's doing and that Paul was essentially a hostile convert up until the point when God did what only God can do. At that time, Paul became the most willing participant and he lived his later life in full demonstration of the radical salvation that God pushed onto him. I do not notice Paul fighting against God at the moment of salvation...
Funny thing happens when GOD shows up to initiate the salvific endeavor... People bow down and WANT to worship Him. He doesn't have to "force." He doesn't even have to coerce. He just arrives. But He does that FIRST before we "decide" and before we even know to ask. In fact, if we are asking, it is because He has already arrived, else we have no power nor will to even ask.
I've shared my own testimony on this board more than one time. I was NOT looking for God (what god?). I was not asking, seeking, knocking, entering, praying, reading, etc., etc., etc. I was perfectly happy in my secular humanistic atheist life when God entered the picture in a way that only He could. My conversion was child's play for Him. All He had to do was arrive, toss a few coincidences my way, and make Himself known to me. After that, I was already His, and SO gladly so.
Would you see it more along basis that when God "wakes us up" and enables us to really see how sinful we reallare, and just how "awesome and loving " he truly is...
We will 'freely" choose to acknowledge Him as he is, as we really will want Him to be in control of our lives, realising how messed up we are and how badly we need Him..
Not "Forced" to believe more than willing to, as He is worth submitting life to!
Yet no matter how one desires to harden or soften the rhetoric, the simple and biblical fact is that God does not save until that person is willing to be saved.
So if God waits for man to be, or made to be willing (does matter which side of the fence one is on) then salvation, by definition, is a cooperative event because he can not be saved UNTIL he believes or as you stated - permitted
True, BUT once God breaks you free"from the bondage of the Human Will"
the desires will be towards God, as you will finally be able to see just how much you really need Him to save and make you one of His own!
That is why he grace is "irresitable" as we who are awoken to be able to really see and know God by His special revelation will willfully accept and believe unto Him and becomed redeemed each and every time, its the "natural" thing to do once he "wakes" us up!
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glfredrick
New Member
I'd say that is how it seems to us, but there is more to it than that.
EDIT: The "more to it than that" includes the supernatural element that everyone seems to neglect in conversations here about salvation. Just what exactly is required for one to become "born-again" and possessed (drawn, sealed, in-dwelt, etc.) by the Holy Spirit? Do WE do all that merely by asking? Doesn't seem so. Seems like our God and King makes that call, as He does the work. Otherwise, Christ and the cross are just nice examples and we should go out and strive to do likewise -- which is precisely what I find SO many people in the Christian world doing.
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I agree that there is, but was just trying to show to others that God is not "forcing" us to accept Jesus, its that once He graces us, quickens us, wakes us up spiritual, due to usbeong Hos very elect, will be the "natural" thing to do!
Where do the scriptures say God breaks us free from the bondage of human will?
Where do the scriptures say God's grace is irresistable?
If that is true, then why are millions in Hell today?
I agree with the statement that God came looking for us when we got saved, not the other way around. I take issue with the idea that when God does come, man has no option other than yes. I also take issue with the idea that God chooses not to go to others. The Bible is very clear in John 3:16:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The simplicity of the Gospel is that anyone who believes in Him can have eternal life. Nowhere is this limited to a select group of individuals.
preacher4truth
Active Member
John 3:16 is not the end all, nor a proof text for your ideology or theological stance.
It is limited to a select set of people. Those He chose/predestined before the foundation of the world.
...keep studying.
However the biblical truth remains as I have answered your OP.. God will save a person only AFTER they are willing.. and that 'willing' means to permit or allow.
On a separate note but regarding your above:
Unfortunately the philosophy that grace is irresistible in the Reformed paradigm is not a biblical concept it is derived from a theological construct. There are an abundance of scriptures which speak to man's resisting.. how can there be a resisting unless there is a working/calling that moves them. Yet scripture states His call can be denied Prov 1:24 - I have called but you have refused, I have stretched out my hand but no man cared (this by the way is the passage to Paul refers back to in Rom 10:21 - all day long I have stretched forth my hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people).
What also needs be noted is that this speaks in a general sense as in both passages it also speaks of those who do not resist. Thus it can not be taken as all men ALWAYS reject but that rejection is common.
Also.. passages such as - you do always resist the Holy Ghost as your fathers did (speaking of the Jewish people on the whole not individuals). And many, many, many more.. Passages that speak of God revealing spiritual truths to people, them fully understanding, and who will still reject the truths of God. Passages establishing that a propitiation was made for the non-elect as well and seen in passages such as 2 Thes 2:10-12 and 1 John 2:2 and as well as many others.
And while it is agreed that the calling is designed to be efficient for a specific group (those of faith) it does not negate the fact that God is moving upon all men the same ways though some more so and some less but all the same. Thus we note that grace is not irresistible due to being ONLY for a selected group because God ONLY works upon them alone.. we note that it can be seem as irresistible because His grace and calling are designed for those who are to believe. There are just to many biblical passages that negate the Reformed theological construct to make it reasonably true.
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But it IS one of the foundational pieces for God's love for all mankind, and yet it is not disputed that this love will not be set upon all specifically but upon those who will believe. Thus it does set the proverbial stage in that since God loves all mankind it establishes the corner stone for His message of salvation to be sent forth to all mankind as well as His desire that all men repent and believe the gospel message. However if there is no propitiation made for any BUT the elect.. all men do not need nor indeed are they bound to repent and believe a message about good news that is not for them nor indeed has anything to do with them. Therefore any rejection of said message has nor will have any bearing on their damnation... but since scripture states it does.. we know that the message of salvation is indeed for them and that is why their rejection of the message/truth indeed does play a vital role in their condemnation
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The grace of God can be resisted.
Irresistable saving grace is not resisted, thats why it is called effectual grace, or irresistable grace......it is only given to the elect!
It always accomplishes what God intends it to. This is also why we know it is not given to all men everywhere.....only to those The Father gives to the Son.
Irresistable saving grace is not resisted, thats why it is called effectual grace, or irresistable grace......it is only given to the elect!
It always accomplishes what God intends it to. This is also why we know it is not given to all men everywhere.....only to those The Father gives to the Son.
Yes.. that is what the Reformed Theological 'construct' necessitates, but it is not a biblical concept. You will not find scripture ever describing grace as irresistible nor effectual. It is only deemed as such through the Reformed Construct in how they see certain grace at work.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Oh. OK. Thanks.
Glad you to help you understand.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yeah, it was about as helpful as your above sentence.
But as long as you think you're lining folks out.
:thumbsup:
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