true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!

[Old Union Brother]

It is all about God:

from the Articles of Faith Union Association Of Old Regular Baptist:

We believe in the doctrine of election by grace

We believe the doctrine of original sin, and man’s impotency to rescue himself from the fallen state he is in by nature by his on freewill ability.

We believe that sinners are called converted, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit and all are so regenerated and born again by the spirit of God shall never fall finally away.

We believe sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[Allan]

Yeah, it was about as helpful as your above sentence.

But as long as you think you're lining folks out.

:thumbsup:

*sigh.. here comes another one just like the other ones; and unfortunately that isn't a reference to any thing spiritually positive.. especially in light of your childish PM's.

 

[Allan]

It is all about God:

from the Articles of Faith Union Association Of Old Regular Baptist:

Cool.. sound exactly like what the majority of non-Cals holds.

 

[preacher4truth]

*sigh.. here comes another one just like the other ones; and unfortunately that isn't a reference to any thing spiritually positive.. especially in light of your childish PM's.

Time for you to be growing up? Anything childish in a pm came from your side, son.

Have a good day.

 

[Allan]

Time for you to be growing up? Anything childish in a pm came from your side, son.

Have a good day.

*sighing yet again...

Here ya go..

Originally Posted by preacher4truth
You pretend that elaborating on ones post to be instructing and bringing such to a higher level of understanding.

It's hilarious.

Quit being you and try being cool instead.

I PM'ed back

And so is your comment as well.
Besides being cool and being me are synonymous

Then you PM'ed

You're way off track.

And nowhere close to cool. More like an ass, in the KJV sense of the word, of course.

Hey but at least you think you're instilling knowledge when you arrogantly elaborate on others comnments, and play pretend scholar, as if you're lining folks out.

Quit being you and be cool instead.

To which I responded

Well regardless of your childishness, I am not only more mature than yourself, but apparently... Oh never mind... since you don't have intellectual fortitude and spiritual maturity to actually speak to someone with love and respect it is a pointless endeavor to go any further.

As I said.. childishness

 

[glfredrick]

However the biblical truth remains as I have answered your OP.. God will save a person only AFTER they are willing.. and that 'willing' means to permit or allow.

So, you are suggesting that Paul was "willing" as he was on the road to Damascus to persecute actual believers?

I am convinced that the two groups will have to agree to disagree on this issue, but for the life of me, I've not found the man who is "willing" apart from God coming to that person FIRST and making Himself known in some form or fashion. The Arminian doctrine says this as do both the Calvinist and Amyraldian doctrines. It is only when one finally arrives at Pelagian (or semi-Pelagian) doctrine that we eliminate God as a first cause in salvation.

In other words, God makes us willing. Whether that is through His grace, through His demonstration that we are sinners, through His love, mercy, vengeance, or any of His other attributes, it is ALWAYS God first, then man second. And I can't find where God dictates that our salvation encounter is dependent on our own actions as the first cause in salvation.

 

[glfredrick]

The grace of God can be resisted.

Irresistable saving grace is not resisted, thats why it is called effectual grace, or irresistable grace......it is only given to the elect!
It always accomplishes what God intends it to. This is also why we know it is not given to all men everywhere.....only to those The Father gives to the Son.

Amen... Well said! :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

*sighing yet again...

Here ya go..


As I said.. childishness

One of the reasons he's on my ignore list :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

So, you are suggesting that Paul was "willing" as he was on the road to Damascus to persecute actual believers?

You bet! You seem to forget the 'fact' that Paul was seeking to be obedient to God whom he loved. Christ opened his eyes to fact He 'was/is' God. So yes, as says even Reformed and Arminian views.. until one is WILLING God will NOT save anyone. They must believe in order to be eternally saved, and if they believe then they are willing.

I am convinced that the two groups will have to agree to disagree on this issue, but for the life of me, I've not found the man who is "willing" apart from God coming to that person FIRST and making Himself known in some form or fashion. The Arminian doctrine says this as do both the Calvinist and Amyraldian doctrines.

Agreed.. now please show who on this board has made any statements contrary to this, in that man must come to God FIRST, or make the first move apart from any divine aid or grace. Fact is, you wont

It is only when one finally arrives at Pelagian (or semi-Pelagian) doctrine that we eliminate God as a first cause in salvation.

Exactly, but as far as I know, you wont find any making that assertion.

In other words, God makes us willing. Whether that is through His grace, through His demonstration that we are sinners, through His love, mercy, vengeance, or any of His other attributes, it is ALWAYS God first, then man second. And I can't find where God dictates that our salvation encounter is dependent on our own actions as the first cause in salvation.

Again, please show where anyone has stated anything after this fashion.

However my point still stands.. God does not save us until we are willing and never before. The very fact that our salvation is not complete till we believe establishes the fact that we are indeed involved in our salvation and this epitomizes the very definition of 'synergism' or mans cooperation with God to be saved because regardless of how little or much man must participate (even by faith) man participates for the Arminian as well as the Reformed position

 

[preacher4truth]

Well regardless of your childishness, I am not only more mature than yourself, but apparently... Oh never mind... since you don't have intellectual fortitude and spiritual maturity to actually speak to someone with love and respect it is a pointless endeavor to go any further.

I never received this name calling, "mature" pm from you. Only saw it on here.

Congrats. :applause:

I rest my case.

 

[Allan]

I never received this name calling, "mature" pm from you. Only saw it on here.

Congrats. :applause:

I rest my case.

Sent as 11:11 am.. ask the admins to verify it. I copy/pasted the sent mail to here.

 

[preacher4truth]

Sent as 11:11 am.. ask the admins to verify it. I copy/pasted the sent mail to here.

...as stated, I never received your "mature" pm.

Lets end it? I said what I said to you, it all still stands.

Handle it and move on like a man?

 

[BobinKy]

Here is my current belief on this topic.

...Bob

A Treatise of the Faith and Practices of the National Association of Free Will Baptists

Chapter 10: Faith (p. 10-11)

STATEMENT

Saving faith is an assent of the mind to the fundamental truths of revelation, (108) an acceptance of the Gospel, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, (109) and a firm confidence and trust in Christ. (110) The fruit of faith is obedience to the Gospel. (111) The power to believe is the gift of God, (112) but believing is an act of the creature, which is required as a condition of pardon, and without which the sinner cannot obtain salvation. (113) All men are required to believe in Christ, and those who yield obedience to this requirement become the children of God by faith. (114)

REFERENCES (p. 28)

(108) Hebrews 11:6: He that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb. 11:1: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. John 5:46, 47; Rom. 10:9.

(109) Romans 10:10: With the heart man believeth unto righteousness. Gal. 5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is...faith. 1 Cor. 12:8, 9.

(110) Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. John 3:16; Rom. 4:20-22; Eph. 3:12.

(111) James 2:17: Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Gal. 5:6; 1 Tim. 1:5.

(112) Philippians 1:29: Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ...to believe on him. 2 Pet. 1:1; Eph. 2:8.

(113) John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mark 16:16; John 8:21, 24; Heb. 11:6.

(114) John 1:7: That all men through him might believe. Gal 3:26: Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Acts 10:43; Rom. 5:1; John 3:15.

​

 

[Allan]

...as stated, I never received your "mature" pm.

Lets end it? I said what I said to you, it all still stands.

Handle it and move on like a man?

Wow, it amazes me at just how 'ungodly' and un-christlike some believers are and their presumption that such actions are acceptable as well. You are credit to the world and it's worldliness, but unfortunately a discredit to believers.

For the sake of those who wish to have at least a somewhat Godly interaction with other believers, I will refrain from answering your asinine comments further, unless you wish to publically apologize and seek forgiveness of a brother. Now back to you interesting topic of the OP.

 

[JesusFan]

You bet! You seem to forget the 'fact' that Paul was seeking to be obedient to God whom he loved. Christ opened his eyes to fact He 'was/is' God. So yes, as says even Reformed and Arminian views.. until one is WILLING God will NOT save anyone. They must believe in order to be eternally saved, and if they believe then they are willing.


Agreed.. now please show who on this board has made any statements contrary to this, in that man must come to God FIRST, or make the first move apart from any divine aid or grace. Fact is, you wont


Exactly, but as far as I know, you wont find any making that assertion.


Again, please show where anyone has stated anything after this fashion.

However my point still stands.. God does not save us until we are willing and never before. The very fact that our salvation is not complete till we believe establishes the fact that we are indeed involved in our salvation and this epitomizes the very definition of 'synergism' or mans cooperation with God to be saved because regardless of how little or much man must participate (even by faith) man participates for the Arminian as well as the Reformed position

Think tha main point here is that while its true that we must place our personal faith Christ to become saved by Grace of God... setting aside issue IF God elects either on an indivdual/corporate basis...

Just think that IF God wants to see one get saved, that the elective grace supplied by Him will cause/allow that person to accept Christ... God makes sure to complete the process which He Himself started!

 

[Allan]

Think tha main point here is that while its true that we must place our personal faith Christ to become saved by Grace of God... setting aside issue IF God elects either on an indivdual/corporate basis...

Just think that IF God wants to see one get saved, that the elective grace supplied by Him will cause/allow that person to accept Christ... God makes sure to complete the process which He Himself started!

You keep trying to bypass what I am saying.

No amount of restating in harder or softer terms negates the fact that both the reformed and Arminian position has man cooperating with God in his salvation whereby God will only save a man if he is willing (ie. permits or allows).

Monergistic.. God does it all - 100%.. yet if man has ANY part whatsoever where his salvation, in any way, is involved or dependent upon action from him... it is not 100% of God but a cooperation of God and man.

 

[preacher4truth]

Wow, it amazes me at just how 'ungodly' and un-christlike some believers are and their presumption that such actions are acceptable as well. You are credit to the world and it's worldliness, but unfortunately a discredit to believers.

For the sake of those who wish to have at least a somewhat Godly interaction with other believers, I will refrain from answering your asinine comments further, unless you wish to publically apologize and seek forgiveness of a brother. Now back to you interesting topic of the OP.

You're blind to your own words and attitude.

As I said:

...as stated, I never received your "mature" pm.

Lets end it? I said what I said to you, it all still stands.

Handle it and move on like a man?

You have much to apologize for, so drop the stones. I'd use the same adjectives to describe you, but that would make me like you.

Go back, take a look. Open your eyes.

Also, you've changed your tone since I called you on it. Self-redemption on your part. Good boy.

Start apologizing and admitting your side, then we can talk.

 

[JesusFan]

You keep trying to bypass what I am saying.

No amount of restating in harder or softer terms negates the fact that both the reformed and Arminian position has man cooperating with God in his salvation whereby God will only save a man if he is willing (ie. permits or allows).

Monergistic.. God does it all - 100%.. yet if man has ANY part whatsoever where his salvation, in any way, is involved or dependent upon action from him... it is not 100% of God but a cooperation of God and man.

Well...

We would agree that man make a decision to accept Jesus Christ by placing faith in Him BUT...

God so works in the heart/man of those who will place faith in Jesus will be placing faith in Him!

 

[Winman]

You keep trying to bypass what I am saying.

No amount of restating in harder or softer terms negates the fact that both the reformed and Arminian position has man cooperating with God in his salvation whereby God will only save a man if he is willing (ie. permits or allows).

Monergistic.. God does it all - 100%.. yet if man has ANY part whatsoever where his salvation, in any way, is involved or dependent upon action from him... it is not 100% of God but a cooperation of God and man.

I don't know why you bother Allan. He knows what you are saying, and he knows it is true, it is impossible not to be true. But your chances of getting a Ref/Cal to admit this are slim and none.

They want to have it all, and are forced to argue direct contradictions. They say salvation is 100% of God, but admit man must believe. They have to admit this, because even a Calvinist knows there are dozens of verses saying man must believe to be saved. When confronted, they revert to the first argument and say salvation is 100% of God. When you point out the scriptures that say man must believe, they say they agree, when you point out this shows man must cooperate, they go again to the first argument. It is an endless cycle. But they will never admit they believe a contradiction, at least I haven't seen it yet.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

 

[glfredrick]

You bet! You seem to forget the 'fact' that Paul was seeking to be obedient to God whom he loved. Christ opened his eyes to fact He 'was/is' God. So yes, as says even Reformed and Arminian views.. until one is WILLING God will NOT save anyone. They must believe in order to be eternally saved, and if they believe then they are willing.

So, let me make sure I have this right. Paul as a Jew was ALREADY SAVED and serving God willingly before the Damascus Road incident? Sure you want to go that route?

Paul was not obedient to Christ. The very name "Christian" was given to people who the Jews thought followed some false teacher. Paul's task was to wipe those people from the face of the earth. He later went on to write that he was "chief among sinners" and other statements that indicated that he realized that he was NOT seeking after the true God that saves before Christ had His way with him.

Agreed.. now please show who on this board has made any statements contrary to this, in that man must come to God FIRST, or make the first move apart from any divine aid or grace. Fact is, you wont.

Huh? Man cannot come to God first. God is ALWAYS first. I've said that, as have over half the people on this board who hold to a divine sovereign view of God.

I know that you do not self-identify with Arminian soteriology, but here is what Articles 3-4 of the 5 articles of the Remonstrance say to this issue (they disagree most fully with you!).

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

Of course, the Calvinists would certainly stand on a doctrine that states most succinctly that GOD IS FIRST in all things, including salvation.

Are you sure you wish to stand by your statement that MAN has to come first in any salvific order? Seems like most of Christendom would be in opposition to you on that point.

Exactly, but as far as I know, you wont find any making that assertion.

You just did... Don't you realize what you are saying? How is what you wrote above materially different from these two positions cited below?

From CARM:
http://carm.org/pelagianism

Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention.

From CARM (Semi-Pelagianism):
http://carm.org/semi-pelagianism

The semi-Pelagian teaches that man can make the first move toward God by seeking God out of his own free will and that man can cooperate with God's grace even to the keeping of his faith through human effort. This would mean that God responds to the initial effort of person and that God's grace is not absolutely necessary to maintain faith.

The problem is that this is no longer grace. Grace is the completely unmerited and freely given favor of God upon the sinner. But, if man is the one who first seeks God, then God is responding to the good effort of seeking him. This would mean that God is offering a proper response to the initial effort of man. This is not grace, but what is due the person who chooses to believe in God apart from God's initial effort.

Semi-Pelagianism says the sinner has the ability to initiate belief in God.
Semi-Pelagianism says God's grace is a response to man's initial effort.
Semi-Pelagianism denies predestination.

However my point still stands.. God does not save us until we are willing and never before. The very fact that our salvation is not complete till we believe establishes the fact that we are indeed involved in our salvation and this epitomizes the very definition of 'synergism' or mans cooperation with God to be saved because regardless of how little or much man must participate (even by faith) man participates for the Arminian as well as the Reformed position

I am making the point, rather firmly, that God DOES INDEED save us before we are willing, and that our willingness is the surest sign that God is already at work! That is the position of the church, historically, until the advent of the heretical Pelagius, and later Arminius (who's theology almost died on the vine until resurrected by Wesley, the founder of Methodism). I find it rather surprising that a Baptist would argue so vociferously in favor of a doctrine that is not Baptist in origin or nature.