Trying to live a Victorious Christian Life?

[Rippon]

I know a nerve has been struck when the intent of opposition is to attack the member rather than deal with the content of the posts. Resorting to such tactics speaks volumes.

I spoke the truth --deal with it.

 

[preacher4truth]

I spoke the truth --deal with it.

Bingo!

Here we have one who ridicules others as 'following a man' yet brags that allegedly he and another 'man' are in 'lockstep' theologically.

You're correct Rippon, oh the hypocrisy and the fact that he cannot see this is to stand in awe because One has allowed it to be so.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

he was being light hearted at first...but then jumped back into the thread...not quite lock step....again he was being positive...not taking a shot at P4T like you did.

I don't like to personalise posts. I do everything I can to avoid it. But I think I need to say a couple of things here.

I fully understood the topic from the time I saw the sermon title about 'struggle theology.' I was not being light-hearted in any measure. When I first agreed about the five hours of preaching it was because I do understand the teaching. I agreed with other posters that it would be a futile effort to hear 5 hours more on a topic I have researched and already know that I disagree with the teaching. I also consider denying the struggle to be a dangerous teaching. I trust I made those points clear in a kind and respectful manner.

TND made some excellent points which I think deserved credit. Anyone who reads the politics section know that he and I are not in 'lock step' by any means. but when I find an area where I can agree with a brother I try to build on that.

My only change was when I considered the author of the OP. He is a young man sorting out his theology. I didn't want to sound critical of him. When I was his age, only about 40 years ago I admit, I took in a lot that I would not agree with today. God used all of those things to make the man I am today. A lot of what I heard and adopted was off base, but somehow God used it in my life.

If this series of messages is something God can use to mould and shape this young man's life than I truly am glad he has been blessed. That is why I made the comment about the Holy Spirit doing His work. The last thing I want to do is dampen the fire in an young man's heart, even if I feel like it is a little misguided in some areas. If this teaching has an upside, it is that it reminds people if the utter futility of trying to serve God in our own strength, and if that is what is gleaned than the Holy Spirit surely has the power to fine tune it.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:" - Col. 2:6

1. In the spirit of humility
2. In faith
3. In the spirit of submission
4. In His word
5. In His grace

praise the Lord.

I think it's sad that we get saved by faith, but then try to live the Christian life in the power of the flesh.

The Evangelist in the messages made the comparison that Christians are trying to live out sanctification the same way that many cults are teaching salvation, by adding works of the flesh to faith,

When in reality it's faith in Christ and allowing him to live the Christian life for us!

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I don't like to personalise posts. I do everything I can to avoid it. But I think I need to say a couple of things here.

I fully understood the topic from the time I saw the sermon title about 'struggle theology.' I was not being light-hearted in any measure. When I first agreed about the five hours of preaching it was because I do understand the teaching. I agreed with other posters that it would be a futile effort to hear 5 hours more on a topic I have researched and already know that I disagree with the teaching. I also consider denying the struggle to be a dangerous teaching. I trust I made those points clear in a kind and respectful manner.

TND made some excellent points which I think deserved credit. Anyone who reads the politics section know that he and I are not in 'lock step' by any means. but when I find an area where I can agree with a brother I try to build on that.

My only change was when I considered the author of the OP. He is a young man sorting out his theology. I didn't want to sound critical of him. When I was his age, only about 40 years ago I admit, I took in a lot that I would not agree with today. God used all of those things to make the man I am today. A lot of what I heard and adopted was off base, but somehow God used it in my life.

If this series of messages is something God can use to mould and shape this young man's life than I truly am glad he has been blessed. That is why I made the comment about the Holy Spirit doing His work. The last thing I want to do is dampen the fire in an young man's heart, even if I feel like it is a little misguided in some areas. If this teaching has an upside, it is that it reminds people if the utter futility of trying to serve God in our own strength, and if that is what is gleaned than the Holy Spirit surely has the power to fine tune it.

I dont think you quite understand what he means by struggle theology.

His point is not that we wont have conflict, or battles..

The point is that we can have genuine victory in our lives over sin,
unfortunately many of us have accepted an "im just human so i'll accept sin" attitude.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I dont think you quite understand what he means by struggle theology.



His point is not that we wont have conflict, or battles..



The point is that we can have genuine victory in our lives over sin,

unfortunately many of us have accepted an "im just human so i'll accept sin" attitude.

I think I have a pretty clear understanding of what struggle theology means, but this preacher used is as as epithet against those who don't agree with him about the route to victorious Christian living . I don't know of any serious minded believers who are striving to live for Christ who are under illusion that we can do anything in our own strength and none who have a ''I'll just accept sin attitude.'

The Christian life is a struggle because if it would not be a struggle if there was no chance of failure. We cannot just 'jump on the victory train' as one writer puts it and sit back and let Jesus give carry us through the struggles. He gives is the strength and He goes with us but we still have to deal with trials and temptations which are to strengthen us for the future. If we did not have to fight we wouldn't need the armour of God. We wouldn't need to be told to endure hardness. We wouldn't need to be told to run the race.

One of the best books I have read recently on this idea is 'Holiness' by J.C. Ryle. I know you are a student and resources are limited, but if you have a Kindle or can read on your computer I think it 99 cents at Amazon.

I am glad that the Lord has used these messages in your heart, but I would encourage you to read some other viewpoints on the issue.

Holiness: The False and True recounts H.A. Ironside's own experiences and conclusions about the matter and was a great help to me as I worked through this.

 

[righteousdude2]

Mho

I'm sure glad God gave me more than 250 words in the bible.

Perhaps you should listen to the first message before you make judgments.

Considering the state of our nation and the state of Christianity in general, a emphasis on Victorious Christian Living would benefit every one of us.

It took Hudson Taylor 15 years to figure out the Victorious Christian Life, What make you think that 1 or 2 hours of Preaching is sufficient?

Seems like a direct reflection of American culture, the "I want things fast" mentality.

The Victorious Christian Life is not something you order at the drive through of a restaurant, if it was we would see a lot more Christians living it.

First - thanks for thinking of us.

I didn't have the time to listen to the sermons, but I am sure they are everything and more than you say! The reason I didn't listen is because years ago, while attending Eagles Nest Christian Fellowship in Tustin, I attended a six-month class that was probably even more extensive, and I am sure exhaustive than your pastors' series. Plus, I went through six more months [there were an hour a week for six months] a class titled, "Armed and Dangerous!"

I feel like I am living the victorious life, and have been living that life for years. I don't know if I can sum it up in the short snapshot my brothers laid out in response to your series, but I have the Scriptural tools and life experience to overcome everything thrown at me in this supernatural war we fight each day!

Of course, I'd not be victorious except for Jesus, and the in filling power of the Holy Ghost, and while I have had my spiritual read-end handed to me [in other words I have lost a few battles from time to time] I know that in the end, WE win this war, and that helps me to get back up on my feet and proceed [not shy away from] to the next battle!

Again, thanks for caring, and I hope some of your fervor, and zeal rub off on a few folks, and that they do listen, so they can know what it means to REALLY live a victorious life! Shalom!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I feel like I am living the victorious life, and have been living that life for years. I don't know if I can sum it up in the short snapshot my brothers laid out in response to your series, but I have the Scriptural tools and life experience to overcome everything thrown at me in this supernatural war we fight each day!



Of course, I'd not be victorious except for Jesus, and the in filling power of the Holy Ghost, and while I have had my spiritual read-end handed to me [in other words I have lost a few battles from time to time] I know that in the end, WE win this war, and that helps me to get back up on my feet and proceed [not shy away from] to the next battle!

Sounds like you have a pretty balanced view on the subject. I too feel generally victorious as I depend on Christ to strengthen me to live the life He wants me to live - but I too stumble and fall and can only be restored on my walk by His power.

I know it is an old book that a lot of folks find boring, but Pilgrim's Progress does a great job of describing what a victorious Christian life is like.

 

[Aaron]

I am broken over the arguing here, pride abounds here on this board and it's such an offense to our holy God, how about we stop acting like we have arrived and start acting like ungodly sinners saved by grace.

Not broken enough to reserve your judgment, I see.

 

[kyredneck]

Sounds like you have a pretty balanced view on the subject. I too feel generally victorious as I depend on Christ to strengthen me to live the life He wants me to live - but I too stumble and fall and can only be restored on my walk by His power......

Is this 'the balance' you refer to? :

"...I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin..."

"...the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak..."

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I dont think you quite understand what he means by struggle theology.

His point is not that we wont have conflict, or battles..

The point is that we can have genuine victory in our lives over sin,
unfortunately many of us have accepted an "im just human so i'll accept sin" attitude.

C4K is right. It is as I stated earlier in the post that drew so much ire from some here, but it speaks the truth. "Struggle theology" is an epithet that is used against progressive sanctification doctrine by those who refuse to believe it is valid. There are those on this board who believe that the positional sanctification we receive at the time of belief is all there is, and that it is all that is needed. You've seen them deny there are strongholds in the lives of those with addictions, who are stuck in adultery, pornography or other sexual addictions, or overeating, workaholism, or other sins they cannot seem to overcome, though outside of those things they may live a more or less solid Christian life. Paul himself wrote of these strongholds.

2 Corinthians 10, NASB
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.​

First, there are those who claim Paul is speaking of the "we" of church leadership, that he is chastising the Corinth believers for continuing in some sin. However, it is obvious from the context that the "we" is a universal usage, referring to the struggle of all Christians, particularly in v. 6 where he speaks of being "ready to punish all disobedience whenever your disobedience is complete." "Punishment" is an unfortunate rendering, as the Greek ekdikeo actually means "vindicate," or "protect." The meaning is that we as Christians who find ourselves in sin are vindicated, protected from punishment, though obviously elsewhere in the Bible is stated that we must confess and repent of those sins. This passage follows Paul's challenge to those who accused him, essentially, of being two-faced: Bold and confrontational when he wrote to them from afar, but meek and humble when he was present with them. Then he launches into the passage above, defending himself against those who are believers but choose to be judgmental and accusatory toward him and his ministry.

The above is from the NASB98. In v. 4, the NASB77 renders the Greek ochuroma as "strongholds." So does the KJV. It is seen above in v. 4 as "fortresses." Commentators are nearly universal in interpreting this passage as referring to our sin that may continue to plague us in our believing lives. John Gill said,

"By strong holds are meant, the strong holds of sin and Satan; such as unbelief, pride, hardness of heart with which the heart of man is walled (so (bl twryq) , "the walls of the heart", ( Jeremiah 4:19 ) ) against God and Christ, and the Gospel of the grace of God, and by which Satan fortifies himself, and keeps the palace and goods in peace, until the everlasting doors are thrown open, which were bolted and barred; and these walls of defence are pulled down by the King of glory, who enters in, which is usually done by the power of God, in the ministry of the Gospel: so sins are called strong holds ... " John Gill's Exposition of the Bible, 2 Corinthians 10:4.

Yet Prettyman, the speaker in your five hours of sermons on victorious Christian living, denies strongholds and denies struggle. That flies in the face of the biblical evidence.

 

[Iconoclast]

the quote from Gill is being misused in this post speaking about unsaved people who are rebellion against Christ and and the strongholds are ungodly thought against the truth of God. To apply this idea to Christians is a denial of Romans 6

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

the quote from Gill is being misused in this post speaking about unsaved people who are rebellion against Christ and and the strongholds are ungodly thought against the truth of God. To apply this idea to Christians is a denial of Romans 6

One could interpret it that way, Icon, but not in light of the context, as I stated in that post. Here's Gill's statement regarding the warfare Paul mentions in v. 3 (keep in mind, he quotes from the KJV):

For though we walk in the flesh
The apostle removes the calumny of walking after the flesh, by owning that they were in the flesh, in the body, in a state of imperfection, attended with many weaknesses and infirmities, and surrounded with a variety of afflictions and sorrows; in this sense they were, and lived and walked in the flesh; but then he denies the charge exhibited against them,

we do not war after the flesh:
every Christian's life is a warfare with Satan, and his principalities and powers, with the world, the men and lusts of it, and with the corruptions of their own hearts; and much more is the life of a minister of the Gospel, who is called forth to meet the adversary in the gate; to stand in the hottest place of the battle, and sustain the whole fire and artillery of the enemy; to fight the good fight of faith, endure hardness as a good soldier of Christ, and with the weapons he is furnished with to war a good warfare: which is not done "after the flesh"; in such a manner as the men of the world wage war with one another; or upon carnal principles; or with carnal selfish views; or in a weak way and manner; but in a spiritual way, with all simplicity and disinterested views, with great courage and intrepidity of mind.

Then we have his entire commentary on v. 4, which I previously left out for sake of space, but perhaps it would be best to quote the whole thing in order to further establish the context (warning, this is going to be lengthy):

For the weapons of our warfare
By "warfare" is here meant, not that which is common to all believers, who are enlisted as volunteers under the captain of their salvation, and fight his battles, and are more than conquerors through him; but what is peculiar to the ministers of the Gospel; and designs the ministerial function, or office, and the discharge of it. So the Levitical function, or the ministerial service of the Levites, is called (hdbeh) (abu) , "the warfare of the service", ( Numbers 8:25 ) . The ministry of the word is so styled, because that as war is waged in defence of men's rights, properties, and liberties, and for the weakening of an enemy's power and possessions, and for the enlargement of kingdoms and dominions; so this is in defence of the truths and liberty of the Gospel, that they may continue and abide; for the weakening of Satan's kingdom, by delivering the lawful captives, taking the prey from the mighty, turning souls from the power of Satan to God, and translating them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Christ Jesus; and so for the enlargement of his kingdom, by spreading the Gospel far and near. The "weapons" with which this warfare is managed are the Scriptures of truth, the sword of the Spirit, the word of God; and which indeed are an armoury, out of which may be taken weapons of all sorts, both offensive and defensive; such as serve both to establish and secure the doctrines of the Gospel, and to refute the errors of the wicked: to which may be added all those gifts which Christ has received for, and gives to men, qualifying them for the work of the ministry, and for the understanding of the sacred writings; together with all those means made use of by them for their improvement in spiritual knowledge; such as diligent reading the word of God, and the labours of his faithful servants, frequent meditation thereon, and earnest prayer to God for more light and experience. Also the various graces of the Spirit, with which they are endued, may be taken into the account; such as the breast plate of faith in Christ, and love to himself, his people, word, ordinances, cause, and interest; the helmet of salvation, hope, the girdle of truth and faithfulness, and the excellent grace of patience to endure all hardships, reproaches, insults, afflictions, and persecutions, cheerfully; and finally, all the acts of their ministration, such as preaching, prayer, the administration of ordinances, and laying on of censures, with the consent of the church. Now these weapons

are not carnal;
such as the men of the world fight with, not the temporal sword; for Christ sent forth his apostles without that, naked and unarmed amidst their enemies, his kingdom not being of this world, and so not to be defended and propagated in such a way; or as the weapons the false apostles used, such as natural eloquence, fleshly wisdom, carnal reason, cunning craftiness, the hidden things of dishonesty, and great swelling words of vanity; or they were not weak and impotent, which is sometimes the signification of "flesh"; see ( Genesis 6:3 ) ( Isaiah 31:3 )

but mighty through God:
powerful and effectual through the blessing of God, and the influences of his grace and Spirit for the conversion of sinners, the edification of saints, the defence of truth, the confutation of error, the destruction of Satan's kingdom, and the enlargement of Christ's: for these weapons are not powerful of themselves; they are passive instruments, which are only efficacious when used by a superior hand; when the Gospel ministration is attended with "the demonstration of the Spirit, and of power"; and then they are serviceable

to the pulling down of strong holds.
The allusion seems to be to the falling of the walls of Jericho, at the sound of ram's horns, which must be ascribed not to those instruments, which were in themselves weak and despicable, but to the power of God that went along with the sound of them. By strong holds are meant, the strong holds of sin and Satan; such as unbelief, pride, hardness of heart with which the heart of man is walled (so (bl twryq) , "the walls of the heart", ( Jeremiah 4:19 ) ) against God and Christ, and the Gospel of the grace of God, and by which Satan fortifies himself, and keeps the palace and goods in peace, until the everlasting doors are thrown open, which were bolted and barred; and these walls of defence are pulled down by the King of glory, who enters in, which is usually done by the power of God, in the ministry of the Gospel: so sins are called strong holds, fortresses, and bulwarks, by the Talmudists {k}, who give this as the sense of ( Ecclesiastes 9:14 )

``a little city, this is the body; "and few men in it", these are the members; "and there came a great king against it, and besieged it", this is the evil imagination, lust, or concupiscence; and built against it (Mydwum) , "great bulwarks", or fortresses, (twnwe hla) , "these are iniquities".''

And so Philo the Jew speaks of (ta bebaiathv kakiav ereismata) , "the firm munitions of vice" being broken down. Or else by them may be meant the fortresses of a man's own righteousness, holiness, good works, and moral duties, in which he entrenches, and thinks himself safe: which the Spirit of God, in the ministry of the word, blows a blast upon, and which are cast down by it, that revealing a better righteousness, even the righteousness of Christ; or else the fleshly wisdom, rhetorical eloquence, and sophisms of false teachers, with which they endeavoured to fortify themselves against the doctrines of the Gospel, but in vain.

As I said, quite obviously Paul is speaking of the believers' difficulty in consistently walking the Christian walk, and the hope and peace they can yet have as we fight the good fight.

 

[Van]

Lets see:

1) Learn all Christ taught and commanded.
2) Strive to follow and obey all that Christ taught and commanded.
3) Teach others by word and deed all Christ taught and commanded.
4) Keep your eyes on the prize, "welcome home, faithful servant."

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Lets see:

1) Learn all Christ taught and commanded.
2) Strive to follow and obey all that Christ taught and commanded.
3) Teach others by word and deed all Christ taught and commanded.
4) Keep your eyes on the prize, "welcome home, faithful servant."

That didn't take five hours either. :thumbsup:

Now, the trick, as with my eight bullet points, is to live out the words on paper -- or in this case, on screen. We see again, the concept is simple, the doing is what is hard.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

That didn't take five hours either. :thumbsup:



Now, the trick, as with my eight bullet points, is to live out the words on paper -- or in this case, on screen. We see again, the concept is simple, the doing is what is hard.

And that is where the difference comes in. The instantaneous practical sanctificationists would tell us it is easy. All you have to do is trust Jesus and you have it.

This normally leads to a 'higher plane' division between the 'have its' and don't have its.'

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And that is where the difference comes in. The instantaneous practical sanctificationists would tell us it is easy. All you have to do is trust Jesus and you have it.

This normally leads to a 'higher plane' division between the 'have its' and don't have its.'

Sanctification requires cooperation. The Holy Spirit awaits, more than willing to lead a willing individual to righteousness. But if the "spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak," as Jesus said, ain't much good gonna happen (that's my paraphrase :laugh: ). That is why reading, studying, absorbing the word -- meditating on it day and night, as David so often wrote -- is essential.

Sure we can listen to good preaching. Not a thing wrong with that.
Sure we can read and learn good theology. Not a thing wrong with that.
Sure we can acquire concordances, lexicons, even commentaries, for use in our personal study. Not a thing wrong with that.

But ultimately, the rubber has to meet the road. Carl Edwards isn't a great race car driver because he studied others and learned what they did well, without actually applying what he learned to his own driving. Carl's a brother in Christ, which is why I use him as an example. We have to apply what we learn -- we eventually have to make it personal. If we don't, it's just listening, reading, and acquiring, to no effect.

That makes us a professional student, not a believer on the road to being like Christ.

 

[Aaron]

Sanctification requires cooperation. The Holy Spirit awaits, more than willing to lead a willing individual to righteousness. But if the "spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak," as Jesus said, ain't much good gonna happen (that's my paraphrase :laugh: ). That is why reading, studying, absorbing the word -- meditating on it day and night, as David so often wrote -- is essential.

This is disturbingly erroneous if not an out and out denial of the message of the Gospel.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

This is disturbingly erroneous if not an out and out denial of the message of the Gospel.

I'd love to see you expound on that to show me where I am in error.

Please note that I do not deny positional sanctification, which is established at belief ...

Romans 8, NASB
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;​

... I also endorse and believe progressive sanctification, which is what I speak of in the previous post ...

Romans 12
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.​

... and in ultimate sanctification in heaven when we receive our perfect spiritual bodies in exchange for our filthy flesh.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

So, on that basis, go for it.

 

[InTheLight]

Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
This is disturbingly erroneous if not an out and out denial of the message of the Gospel.

I'd love to see you expound on that to show me where I am in error.

Another example of a Calvinist claiming to know the state of someone else's salvation.