TULIP - Which of the 5 points to subscribe to?

[JonC]

That last point sounds an awful lot like molinism.

It isn't. He defended his view by claiming that God is sovereign so whatever occurs ultimately works for God's glory and is in God's control.

 

[Brightfame52]

All five points are elements of the Gospel Of Gods grace !

 

[JesusFan]

I hold that all men resist God by nature as their minds are set on the flesh.
I do not hold an opinion about how God elects. I think it is better to take Scripture for what is stated in Scripture.

I think that I cannot understand the mind of God apart from what He has revealed in His Word, so I have learned to leave the theories and philosophies alone. It's difficult because I like philosophy, but having been cautioned against such in Scripture I have to check myself.

Bible states to us that God has chosen His own from before the foundation of the earth, from eternity past, based upon the will of God, correct?

 

[Silverhair]

No, those against it have at times lumped Hypers and Calvinists as same, as I noticed that you seem to be against Hyper Calvinism mainly

I find it odd that you refer to Hyper and Cal's as if they are different.

Both hold to the TULIP/DoG,
Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election that will partake of the Limited Atonement will then be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace.
So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Calvinistic theology precludes this.

So to say they are different is like saying a Cocker Spaniel and an English Spaniel are different but they are both Spaniel's.

Those that say they are Hyper are just more rigid in their thinking.

I know some will say them hold to a Compatibilist view but that is still a deterministic view.

“Compatibilism is no less deterministic than hard determinism.” [Calvinist {John Hendryx, How can God be Sovereign and Man still be Free?}]

As I see it Compatibilism is just hard determinism with a slight modification for the sake of appearances.

 

[JonC]

Bible states to us that God has chosen His own from before the foundation of the earth, from eternity past, based upon the will of God, correct?

No. The Bible states that God chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The passage is Ephesians 1. The passage is speaking of the body of Christ.

Calviniists extract portions to "prove" individual election. Non-Calvinists look to verses 11-23 to indicate corporate election.

 

[atpollard]

As I see it Compatibilism is just hard determinism with a slight modification for the sake of appearances.

That sounds like a "YOU" problem.
We can explain it TO YOU, but we cannot understand it FOR YOU.

How about Genesis 50:20? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?
The story of Job? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?
The fall of Adam? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?

 

[atpollard]

No. The Bible states that God chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

That plus "foreknew" before "predestined" before "justified" (and Justified happened before I was born when Christ died and rose).

 

[JonC]

That plus "foreknew" before "predestined" before "justified" (and Justified happened before I was born when Christ died and rose).

You can't simply assume the "we" and "us" is not corporate. That is the issue. The passage can be interpreted to apply individually, but the context us the body of Christ (the context of the chapter). So it does not "prove" individual election. People take the passage in accordance to their presuppositions (both sides).

 

[Silverhair]

That sounds like a "YOU" problem.
We can explain it TO YOU, but we cannot understand it FOR YOU.

How about Genesis 50:20? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?
The story of Job? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?
The fall of Adam? Compatibalism or Hard Determinism?

Well since your own Calvinist teacher says they are the same what do you think?

Compatibilism is God being God, and then also God exhaustively decreeing every man’s nature, from which springs all thoughts and intentions. Even by the Compatibilist’s own admission, “Compatibilism is no less deterministic than hard determinism.” ...In the compatibilist scheme, human desire is wholly derived from and wholly bound to the divine desire. God’s decree encompasses everything, even the desires that underlie human choices. [

Index

calvinismanswered.homesteadcloud.com

]

So when you understand that there is no real difference between Compatibalism or Hard Determinism then the question becomes moot.

If man is just doing as God decreed then what does it matter what you, @atpollard , call it?

 

[Brightfame52]

No. The Bible states that God chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. The passage is Ephesians 1. The passage is speaking of the body of Christ.

Calviniists extract portions to "prove" individual election. Non-Calvinists look to verses 11-23 to indicate corporate election.

You do understand that the Body of Christ is composed of very important and distinct members ? 1 Cor 12:12,14,18

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For the body is not one member, but many.

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Davids 139 Psalms Pictures/Types the members of Christs Body all being written in the book Ps 139:16

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

So please dont exclude the Members of that Body of Christ, to the Head. Christs Body isn't a corporation of non entities, but carefully selected members

Corporation

1. an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members.
2. any group of persons united or regarded as united in one body.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

 

[Brightfame52]

You can't simply assume the "we" and "us" is not corporate. That is the issue. The passage can be interpreted to apply individually, but the context us the body of Christ (the context of the chapter). So it does not "prove" individual election. People take the passage in accordance to their presuppositions (both sides).

It is corporate, but it cant be denied that the corporate is composed of individual members. Right her Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Each of the plural pronouns depict the subject personally with others were chosen together

 

[JonC]

It is corporate, but it cant be denied that the corporate is composed of individual members. Right her Eph 1:4

I agree. The corporate is composed of individuals.

The issue, however, is where they were chosen to be in Christ (the Elect of God) or were chosen in Christ (the Elect of God).

Individual election is "Father centered" (the Father elects individuals) while corporate election is Christ centered (Christ is the Elect, those in Him Elect based on Christ's election).

 

[JonC]

You do understand that the Body of Christ is composed of very important and distinct members ? 1 Cor 12:12,14,18

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For the body is not one member, but many.

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Davids 139 Psalms Pictures/Types the members of Christs Body all being written in the book Ps 139:16

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

So please dont exclude the Members of that Body of Christ, to the Head. Christs Body isn't a corporation of non entities, but carefully selected members

Corporation

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Yes.

I have not argued for either position. I just observed the passage itself is not proof of Calvinistic election.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

I agree. The corporate is composed of individuals.

Okay, so Eph 1:4 is also about Individual Election, all of them were together chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That includes OT Saints and NT Saints.

The issue, however, is where they were chosen to be in Christ (the Elect of God) or were chosen in Christ (the Elect of God).

They were Chosen IN Christ, in Union with Him. When was Christ Chosen ? At that time they were chosen in union with Him.

Like Eve and Adam, when God Created Adam, though at first she had not been manifested, when He created him as Per Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Well Eve was in Adam here Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Now eve was in Adam, not to be in Adam,

And so it is with them Chosen in Christ, they are in Him b4 they are manifested in time, just as eve was in Adam b4 manifested.

To be technical the elect were in Christ b4 they were in Adam. Do you believe men had a union with Adam in the beginning ? Or were they to be in Adam ?

Individual election is "Father centered" (the Father elects individuals) while corporate election is Christ centered (Christ is the Elect, those in Him Elect based on Christ's election).

That sounds like something you have made up in your mind, The Father chose the individuals that comprised the corporate body, it says that in Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Father personally chose His Sons Bride, Eve

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes.

I have not argued for either position. I just observed the passage itself is not proof of Calvinistic election.

I believe you are in denial on that point, or you honestly just dont have understanding of what you read there

 

[atpollard]

Well since your own Calvinist teacher says they are the same what do you think?

I didn’t even know you knew Hank DeWeerd (the teacher that taught me that what I believed was called ‘Calvinism’).
However, I am pretty sure that Hank considers “Compatibalism” and “Hard Determinism” as two different things. (Moody Graduates are usually pretty good at understanding definitions of theological terms).

 

[Brightfame52]

I didn’t even know you knew Hank DeWeerd (the teacher that taught me that what I believed was called ‘Calvinism’).
However, I am pretty sure that Hank considers “Compatibalism” and “Hard Determinism” as two different things. (Moody Graduates are usually pretty good at understanding definitions of theological terms).

Moody in Chi town ? Arminian school you know ? But he could still learn from there. I graduated from a arminain bible college, but God preserved me through it.

 

[JonC]

@JonC



Okay, so Eph 1:4 is also about Individual Election, all of them were together chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That includes OT Saints and NT Saints.



They were Chosen IN Christ, in Union with Him. When was Christ Chosen ? At that time they were chosen in union with Him.

Like Eve and Adam, when God Created Adam, though at first she had not been manifested, when He created him as Per Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Well Eve was in Adam here Gen 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Now eve was in Adam, not to be in Adam,

And so it is with them Chosen in Christ, they are in Him b4 they are manifested in time, just as eve was in Adam b4 manifested.

To be technical the elect were in Christ b4 they were in Adam. Do you believe men had a union with Adam in the beginning ? Or were they to be in Adam ?




That sounds like something you have made up in your mind, The Father chose the individuals that comprised the corporate body, it says that in Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Father personally chose His Sons Bride, Eve

No. The verse is not "about" individual election. We agree that the corporate is made up of individuals but it is an error to assume individual election is implied exceot that Christ is "God's elect".

The part that destroys your argument is "in Him". It needs to read "to Him" in order to prove individual election.

That dies not mean individual election is wrong. But it does not prove it cirrect either.

 

[JonC]

I believe you are in denial on that point, or you honestly just dont have understanding of what you read there

No, I am not in denial. I simply am not reading into the passage.

There is a reason biblical scholars e ist on both sides of this issue- Scripture itself neither affirms or denies individual election.

For myself, I am not dogmatic about it either way. That, as you noted, is not the actual point of that chapter.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

No. The verse is not "about" individual election. We agree that the corporate is made up of individuals

Right so its about both !