Two parts of baptism?

[Frank]

Sularis:
What does the purchase of a gown or robe have to do with the commandment to be baptized for the remission of sins? This discussion has reached the point of being absurd.
What if I bring a change of clothes from home or I am baptized in the river? Do I now boast because I wear clothes and get immersed in a muddy river? I guess the scripture for baptismal clothing and meriting salvation is also found in Jude Chapter 2!! Instead of examinig the scriptures, we are getting " I think, I feel, my opinion." Do you sincerely think a robe or gown is something a person brags about? I have baptized a number of people but none of them bragged on the gown or being baptized as if they merited salvation. I have heard them comment that the water was cold!
Every person that I have baptized did it because they wanted to be saved by the grace of God. They did it out of faith that the blood of Christ would cleanse them from sin. They did it to submit to the will of God.( Mk;. 16:16, Col. 2:12, Romans 6: 3-5, Acts 2:38, Eph. 2:8,9, Acts 2:38).
Frank

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hope that helps you understand one of my reasons why water Baptism cannot save.

"and this water [the flood] symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet 3:21 NIV)

Hope that helps you understand why water Baptism does save.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

"and this water [the flood] symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet 3:21 NIV)
Hope that helps you understand why water Baptism does save.</font>[/QUOTE]1Pet.3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

What makes you think that the word "baptism" refers back to water? You deliberately misquoted the verse.

What makes you think "baptism" is even referring to a water baptism at all? You are mistaken. There is no mention in this verse of water baptism. You are just making it up to fit your own theology. Study a little bit and find out what it really means.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

I see the word water right there - it's explicit.

"...saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism..." KJV

"...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you... NIV

"...were saved through water. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you..." NRSV

How are baptism and the flood alike? WATER

[ June 22, 2002, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
I see the word water right there - it's explicit.

"...saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism..." KJV

So tell me the plain meaning of verse 20, Sola. Did the water save the eight souls? Is that the meaning of the verse, that the waters of the Flood actually saved Noah and his family. Is this your belief?
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

I think I explained this before, DHK. There are at least 2 parts of salvation:

(1) Santification (separation from the wicked)
(2) Making safe

One of these was done by the Ark (2) and the other by the water (1).

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
There are at least 2 parts of salvation:
(1) Santification (separation from the wicked)
(2) Making safe
One of these was done by the Ark (2) and the other by the water (1).

1. I don't believe your theology is correct.
2. I don't believe your application of Scripture or interpretation of this Scripture is correct.
3. Just answer the question: Do you believe that Noah and his family were saved by the waters of the Flood? Is that what saved them? Is that your belief?
DHK

 

[blackbird]

What's all this commotion about water baptism being able to save anyone? The old Hebrew writer says that it is Christ Jesus who "saves" us to the uttermost.

Here's a question--if Baptism is what washes away sin--then what in the world was Jesus doing in that River Jordan when He had no sins to "wash away?" He got baptised but He was never a sinner. He had no sin to wash away!

 

[SolaScriptura]

DHK: Sanctification, which is one aspect of salvation, was effected by the water.

Blackbird:

Here's a question--if Baptism is what washes away sin--then what in the world was Jesus doing in that River Jordan when He had no sins to "wash away?" He got baptised but He was never a sinner. He had no sin to wash away!

Jesus answered your question in Mat 3:15 - please read his answer.

What's all this commotion about water baptism being able to save anyone? The old Hebrew writer says that it is Christ Jesus who "saves" us to the uttermost.

Doesn't the "old Hebrew writer" also explain what the "principles of the doctrine of Christ" are? Specifically, doesn't he say "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."? Now, since these are Christ's own principles, they cannot be contrary to Christ - since Christ established baptism, it is not contrary to him! Doesn't he say that in the 6th chapter? Doesn't he also explain that salvation is not so automatic as "once-saved-always-saved"? Doesn't he say in chapter 10 and verse 26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."? Does he not say that?

[ June 24, 2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Quote by Sola:
""and this water [the flood] symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet 3:21 NIV)" "Hope that helps you understand why water Baptism does save."
"Sanctification, which is one aspect of salvation, was effected by the water."

Sola, What kind of God do you serve? You are like the Charismatic on the other thread that can't answer a straight yes or no question. Is this now the fourth time that I am asking the question: Do you believe that the water of verse 20 saved Noah and them that were with him? Was it the water that saved? Can you answer that with a direct answer, without beating around the bush?

"Sanctification was effected by water." You mean the water of the Flood, in verse 20, that I have been talking about?? The God you serve must be very vindictive, cruel, and destructive. The Flood destroyed the world, and every thing in it, except for those that were in the Ark. The Flood waters were very destructive. You compare God's work of sanctification in the believer to the most destructive act that is described in Biblical history. By what I gather from what you are saying, your God must annihilate and destroy a person, such as the Flood did, before He can save them. The Flood waters were destructive, and you compare that to God's redemptive act??
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

If Noah had went into the ark and had exited without the flood taking place then all the wicked men would have been right there waiting for him, and if the flood had come and Noah didn't have the ark he would have drowned. If he only had had one of them - either one of them - then it would've been pretty sad for Noah. But because God gave Noah the blueprints for the ark (which Noah faithfully & obediently built, trusting in God) and God sent the rain, Noah safely exited to a world absent of wickedness. It wouldn't have been much of a salvation with an ark and no flood nor with a flood and no ark.

The Flood waters were destructive, and you compare that to God's redemptive act??

Why are you so baffled? It was Peter the apostle who wrote this by inspiration. I didn't come up with it on my own and I never would have thought of such a thing if Peter hadn't taught it.

[ June 24, 2002, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Why are you so baffled? It was Peter the apostle who wrote this by inspiration. I didn't come up with it on my own and I never would have thought of such a thing if Peter hadn't taught it.

Yes, you came up with this perversion of Scripture by yourself, or through the ideas of those through whom you choose to associate. It is not what the Scripture teaches, and it is not what Peter is saying. God is not cruel and vindictive. Noah was saved by means of the ark. It was the water that destroyed the world, and the ark that saved Noah. That was the point Peter was making. Water does not save. They were saved out of the water, not by means of the water. It is obvious that the water did not save them. It destroyed everything in sight. It was the ark that saved them. The ark is a picture of Christ. Verse 21 mentions the word baptism, but says nothing of water baptism. The word means "immersion," as you well know. Noah was inside the Ark. The believer is in Christ. Our Ark is Christ. In Him only is salvation, not in any water. The water is destructive, not salvic. You have the wrong picture here. If anything the water represents the filth of the world which the believer is immersed in daily, and only by being in the Ark of Christ can we keep ourselves from being tainted with sin or falling into the sin of the world. Jesus saves! Jesus is our Ark.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

The water cannot represent the filth of the world...the water destroyed the world remember? THat which destroys the world represents the world??? Please! Peter says "8 souls saved by water - this prefigures baptism that saves you...by the resurrection of Christ." What does the water represent? The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ (Rom 6) not the world. You're making stuff up.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Please! Peter says "8 souls saved by water - this prefigures baptism that saves you..

Who is making what up?? Peter says, "eight souls saved by water," and what does he mean? I ask you again. Did the water save the eight souls? Is that what Peter meant by that statement? Did the Flood waters actually save those eight souls? Is this what you blelieve? It amazes me how some people cannot give straight answers!
DHK

 

[charles]

Boy,gotta hand it to you two,both are doing an excellent job.

Baptism is confusing.When the bible says baptism saves us by the ressurection of Jesus,Sola is right about 2 parts.

The death,burial and ressurection of Jesus saves us period(1Cor15:1-4).We are saved by the gospel alone.Gospel+0=remission of sins.That's one part.

The second part is that we are to obey the gospel.Not that baptism has power to save but because of the covenant that Jesus made that he will extend his grace to those of us who obey him.When God made a covenant with Abraham to be circumcised,it had no power to make Jews out of people.But they submited to circumcision out of obedience.

The gospel is the saving power.

The response (our obedience) is the power for receiving the remission of sins that the gospel has provided.Baptism is only 1 response but one which is needed to obey the gospel.

Great job guys,Charles

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by charles:
The death,burial and ressurection of Jesus saves us period(1Cor15:1-4).We are saved by the gospel alone.Gospel+0=remission of sins.That's one part.

I agree Charles, the gospel saves, and the gospel alone. If one sticks with the reference you give you don't find mention of baptism in those four verses, but you do find, "gospel," "saved," and a description of what the gospel is. Baptism is not a part of it. I do believe that a saved person will obey the Lord and get baptized, but it is not the baptism that saves him. Baptism is simply a symbol of our new life in Christ, an act of obedience done after we have already received Christ as Saviour.
I know I am saved, not because I have been baptized, but because I have trusted the shed blood of Christ.
DHK

 

[charles]

DHK,

You are so right.The only cleansing agent for sin is the blood of Christ.I have no problem with your belief system and I don't think God does either.Really,who cares and who knows when we are covered by his grace.

Sola is just doing a good job of relating what the bible says about baptism.Our hermeneutics are different but the power remains the same.

Isn't it wonderful to have good dialoque between believers,especially between believers who know where the power originates.
God bless,Charles

 

[Sularis]

Frank Baptism robes and such were a way of showing how one may glory in Baptism; and if one can glory, then one of two things must be true

1) The ritual is being misunderstood in its present context

AND/OR

2) The ritual itself cannot save

Baptism was a culturally accepted practice at that time. It is my belief that God, permitted Baptism, much like divorce, mainly because the true Baptism of the Spirit, would then have gotten misunderstood, much like the Charismatics, and the Corithian church.

 

[SolaScriptura]

"Baptism was a culturally accepted practice at that time. It is my belief that God, permitted Baptism, much like divorce..."

If i have ever seen heresy or false doctrine, this is it! Do you honestly belive that "He commanded them to be baptized" sounds like merely permitting it? How about "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved?" What about "Repent & be baptized." It's a command - not permission.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Baptism was a culturally accepted practice at that time. It is my belief that God, permitted Baptism, much like divorce..."

If i have ever seen heresy or false doctrine, this is it! Do you honestly belive that "He commanded them to be baptized" sounds like merely permitting it? How about "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved?" What about "Repent & be baptized." It's a command - not permission.</font>[/QUOTE]AMEN! Haven't been around for a few days, but this is the best thing I've read this evening. Great post!

MEE