Two parts of baptism?

[DHK]

Sularis,
I have to agree with Sola,, that the Lord did command us to be baptized (Mat.28:19,20). The question of the necessity of baptism arises in its relation to salvation. The question is, Does one need baptism in order to be saved?, or is baptism simply a step of obedience in the Christian life after salvation has already been granted to the believer? Frank, Sola, MEE, Catholic Convert, Seventh Day Adventists, and whole lot of other diverse sects require baptism as an essential element for salvation. They believe in baptismal regeneration, one of the early heresies of the church, but not taught in the Word of God. You will find this doctrine taught by Catholics and cults mostly. But it is not an orthodox doctrine. The Bible does not teach that water saves. It does not teach that baptism saves. The waters of baptism gets you wet. It is a step of obedience in the Christian faith.
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

But it is not an orthodox doctrine. The Bible does not teach that water saves. It does not teach that baptism saves. The waters of baptism gets you wet. It is a step of obedience in the Christian faith.

The lack of understanding of Baptismal regeneration is the product of a fundamental flaw in reformed/anabaptist hermenuetics. They fail to see that to be joined to the death and resurrection of Christ(as promised to occur with Baptism Rm 6,Col 2:12) is an act of God. Instead, they see the Gospel as a continuation of the Law or in some cases a new Law. Partly, because they trust only what their eyes see instead of acknowledging the power of faith(another gift from God), Water and Word to join us to the work of salvation done for us by Jesus. They even go so far sometimes to make faith a work in and of itself.

[ June 24, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[Sularis]

Mark 10 passage - clearly indicates that divorce was a concession and not an approved part of the master plan.

Yet many times God uses the example of divorce in the Bible

Was not the commandment given by Moses divinely inspired or was it an example of Moses sticking words in God's mouth?

I'm trying to make a point here, obviously its not an easy one to consider, but perhaps too much emphasis has been put on water baptism - and although it is a command of God and should be obeyed; I feel the church universal has abused this rite far too much, like Communion. It would be better to abstain, then profane

 

[Briguy]

Sularis wrote:
"but perhaps too much emphasis has been put on water baptism"

I agree that too much is made of water Baptism. I think that if the effort was put out to reach people with as much energy as some on this board put into arguing about Baptism being needed to be saved, more poeple would be hearing the Gospel and placing their trust in Christ.

I have said this before and will say it again. The Baptism ceremonies we see today are NOT like the baptisms in the early church. In almost every case in the Bible people were Baptized immediately after they responded to the gospel. Now it is weeks, months, or years after folks trust Christ that they get Baptized. Or in the case of RC, L's people (infants) are baptized before they have a clue what baptism is. So, we have infant Baptism, believer Baptism, Baptism weeks after being saved, Baptism moments after being saved, sprinkling Baptism, dunking Baptism, etc... Yikes!!!! I'm feeling wet just thinking about it . When you stand before God/Jesus some day I doubt he will say to those who place their full trust in him, "I know you fully trust me by faith but go away to Hell for you never were saved by the waters of Baptism". I thank God a lot that I am not trapped into that kind of a theology. Back to my earlier point, Baptism has been changed. It was a very serious thing in the early church because it was a absolute link to the radical group known as "The Way". Oh well, I don't want to make my same old argument again.

In Gospel Truth,
Brian

[ June 25, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[SolaScriptura]

Sularis, go read what Moses said about divorce carefully and you will see that there is not command to divorce, but a command that if someone divorce they must give a certificate to show such. Baptism, however, is commanded.

Eph 5:26 says "That he might sanctify and cleanse it [the church] with the washing of water by the word,'

The Bible plainly declares that Jesus will wash the church with water (aka baptism) so there is not question about it. I guess you guys think that people can be saved outside the church, thus Jesus washes the church with water but those outside the church can be saved to, so it doesn't matter. Whatever...it's your business and you can be heretics if you want.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
The Bible plainly declares that Jesus will wash the church with water (aka baptism)... you can be heretics if you want.

Is that water chlorinated, or not?
Should it be from the River Jordan, or perhaps from the Dead Sea?
Would the water that Peter Popov brings from Russia be good enough?
Must it contain Floride?

What kind of water does Jesus use?

 

[Briguy]

Good one DHK

Sola, Do you believe in infant Baptism?
If not, who CAN be baptized?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SolaScriptura]

Is that water chlorinated, or not?
Should it be from the River Jordan, or perhaps from the Dead Sea?
Would the water that Peter Popov brings from Russia be good enough?
Must it contain Floride?

The only thing I read is "much water." (John 3:23) I should think that if none other than RCC "holy water" could be found, even that abominable water would do if there were "much water."

Sola, Do you believe in infant Baptism?
If not, who CAN be baptized?

(Acts 8:36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

The only things that can hinder a person from being baptized are that they have no faith or have not confessed their faith in Christ.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
The Bible plainly declares that Jesus will wash the church with water (aka baptism)... you can be heretics if you want.

If this is what the Bible actually teaches then, who is the Jesus that I should go to, to be baptized of.
Christ ascended into Heaven almost 2000 years ago, did He not? Was it that same Jesus that baptized you? I met someone who is of a small Islamic sect, and believes that Christ is now living in a small town in Pakistan. Should I go there and try to find Him and be baptized of him? There is a man in our own city that declares himself to be divine. Perhaps I should be baptized of him? Which Jesus were you baptized by, and what water did he use, if this verse refers to water baptism?
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura]

(Mat 24:26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura:
Eph 5:26 says "That he might sanctify and cleanse it [the church] with the washing of water by the word,'

The Bible plainly declares that Jesus will wash the church with water (aka baptism)... you can be heretics if you want.

It has become obvious, Sola, from the above posts that you have clearly taken Eph.5:26 out of its context, and misconstrued the meaning of "water" to fit in with your own man-made theology. Eph.5:26 says:
1. that Jesus Himself sanctifies and cleanses the church, not the pastor of the Church of Christ or any other church.

2. that He cleanses the church by the washing of water by the Word. The agent here is the Word, not the water. The water is purely symbolic.

He cleanses the church by His Word.

Does this accord with the rest of Scripture?
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

There is no hint of baptism in this verse, as you wrongly suggest.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Sola writes:
"""""(Acts 8:36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

The only things that can hinder a person from being baptized are that they have no faith or have not confessed their faith in Christ. """""

-----

Sola, You just openly admit that Baptism comes after faith and confession. So, isn't the person saved at the time of faith?, not baptism, as stated by the verse you quote?

So, Based on Acts 8:36 and your statement, if a person comes to faith in Christ and confesses Christ, say in China, and then gets killed by the goverment before he makes it to be baptized, is the person saved?

Looking forward to your reply,
In Christ,
Brian

 

[SolaScriptura]

So, Based on Acts 8:36 and your statement, if a person comes to faith in Christ and confesses Christ, say in China, and then gets killed by the goverment before he makes it to be baptized, is the person saved?

You are getting back in to normal vs extreme cases, which I've already talked about somewhere in this discussion - just go read those posts. Baptism is necessary to those to whom it is possible...

PS: This topic just keeps going in circles, so I'm done. Pricked in their hearts by the preaching of the gospel, the men on Pentecost cried "What shall we do?" If the question is the same, the answer is too! "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

[ June 28, 2002, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Briguy]

Sola writes:
"""". Baptism is necessary to those to whom it is possible...""""

Sola, There is no way around it. Either Baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation or it is not. You have now stated that it is not. So, the conclusion from our discussion is that a person gets "saved" first (by placing his trust in Christ and His shed blood) and then gets baptized as a testement to that salvation, which was by faith.

Whew.... I guess I am going to Heaven after all, I have been a little nervous about that lately

Sola, Thanks for the great discussion!!!!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Chemnitz]

So, the conclusion from our discussion is that a person gets "saved" first (by placing his trust in Christ and His shed blood)

I know I am being nitpicky here but do you honestly believe that you can consciously decide to have faith? Faith is a gift from God created by the Holy Spirit. By saying that a person is saved by "placing his trust in Christ and His shed blood" makes faith a work.

I do agree with Sola on the point of the necessity of baptism. It is necessary that if all possible a believer should be baptised. One because Jesus commanded it. Two, it is one of the means that God promised to join us to Christ's sacrifice. It is not necessary to the point that if a believer is not baptised before he dies they will go to hell. I would have to say the only time an unbaptized person who claims to be a believer will go to hell is when they have actively rejected baptism. Thus, denying the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[Briguy]

I deny nothing, I just honestly and sincerely interet baptism scripture different then you and Sola.

I trust Christ the same way I trust a chair when I sit down. I have faith that when I sit the chair will hold me. That kind of faith and trust is not a work.

In Love and truth,
Brian

 

[Chemnitz]

You may have to back off the whole idea and look at it again at some later date to see what I am saying. The way you worded the reception of faith made faith your work rather than a gift from God. You may honestly believe that it is a gift from God and not of your own doing, but the wording of your post suggests otherwise.

I absolutely detest "decision theology" which comes down to "you must decide for Jesus" or "you must make him your lord and savior" or "you must repent and be baptised". We can do none of these, all we can do is walk away from the Salvation Jesus offers. God created faith, God gives us faith. We do not chose to accept it. What exact role we play in the conversion process is unknown and in the attempt to explain the conversion process people have made it a work. What we know for sure is that God makes us His when conversion happens.

Somebody will probably say something about the "repent and be baptised" bit. So I will go ahead and say this now. Those people whom Peter spoke to already believed, if they hadn't believed they wouldn't have asked.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Somebody will probably say something about the "repent and be baptised" bit. So I will go ahead and say this now. Those people whom Peter spoke to already believed, if they hadn't believed they wouldn't have asked.

That is one of the most contradictory statements that I have ever heard.
Are you saved? If so, how did you get saved?
If not, Then you need to, Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, according to Romans 10:13. First you call, then you are saved. First you believe then you are saved (Acts 16:31).
Baptism plays no part in this.
DHK

 

[Chemnitz]

Are you saved? If so, how did you get saved?

Yes, and God made he his own and not by any action of my own.

Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, according to Romans 10:13. First you call, then you are saved.

You should try reading further "But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed?" To call on Him you already have to believe and therefore are already justified before God.

If Baptism plays no part in salvation then why did Jesus command it and Paul write of the promise that we are joined to his resurrection through baptism?

[ June 28, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:

You should try reading further "But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed?" To call on Him you already have to believe and therefore are already justified before God.

You should try reading further, and not pulling parts of verses out of context.

Romans 10:13-16
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

This whole passage is based on belief. They have not all obeyed the gospel, verse 16 says. Read the entire progression of verse 14 and 15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace. The gospel is preached. They that believe are saved. That much is self-evident. What else is evident in this passage is that baptism plays no part.
DHK