Two Questions

[thatbrian]

Then you have Classical Arminians, such as myself, who don't believe half of the garbage you think Arminians believe.

Those who hold classical Arminian beliefs, and understand what that means, are a very, very, rare breed.

If you had read my posts carefully, you would have seen, and understood, that I did not say that Arminians don't exist, there are just not many of them, as most of the evangelical world is semi-Pelagian, or worse.

 

[Reynolds]

Those who hold classical Arminian beliefs, and understand what that means, are a very, very, rare breed.

If you had read my posts carefully, you would have seen, and understood, that I did not say that Arminians don't exist, there are just not many of them, as most of the evangelical world is semi-Pelagian, or worse.

Maybe not too rare. The funny thing is that Classical Arminianism is very close to Calvinism.

 

[thatbrian]

The funny thing is that Classical Arminianism is very close to Calvinism.

I'm not sure how you could make that assertion. It is certainly much closer to it than Pelagianism is, but it is the antithesis of Calvinism, disagreeing with it on all 5 points.

Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

The Five Points of Calvinism and Arminianism
The following is a comparison of the five points of Calvinism and the five points of Arminianism arising out of the Dutch Remonstrance controversy.Taken from Romans and Interpretive Outline by David N Steele and Curtis C Thomas ISBN 978-0-87552-443-6 Appendix D Pages 144-147 used with permission from P&R Publishing Co. P.O. Box 817, Phillipsburg, N.J. 08865
The "Five Points" of Arminianism The "Five Points" of Calvinism
1. Free Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

1. Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

2. Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

2. Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

3. Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

4. The Holy Spirit Can be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

4. Irresistible Grace or The Efficacious Call of the Spirit
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

5. Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ--that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

5. Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

REJECTED
by the Synod of Dort
This was the system of thought contained in the "Remonstrance" (though the "five points" were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.

REAFFIRMED
by the Synod of Dort
This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into "five points" (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the "five points of Calvinism."

�

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[TCassidy]

There are plenty examples of men resisting the will of God for their lives.

But that is not the point.

If God. In His sovereignty allows men to resist certain parts of His permissive will, how can you be sure He does not allow them to resist other parts?

Because we believe salvation is NOT part of His Permissive will. We believe salvation is based on God's Decretal will.

 

[Reynolds]

I'm not sure how you could make that assertion. It is certainly much closer to it than Pelagianism is, but it is the antithesis of Calvinism, disagreeing with it on all 5 points.

Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

The Five Points of Calvinism and Arminianism
The following is a comparison of the five points of Calvinism and the five points of Arminianism arising out of the Dutch Remonstrance controversy.Taken from Romans and Interpretive Outline by David N Steele and Curtis C Thomas ISBN 978-0-87552-443-6 Appendix D Pages 144-147 used with permission from P&R Publishing Co. P.O. Box 817, Phillipsburg, N.J. 08865
The "Five Points" of Arminianism The "Five Points" of Calvinism
1. Free Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

1. Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

2. Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

2. Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

3. Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

4. The Holy Spirit Can be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

4. Irresistible Grace or The Efficacious Call of the Spirit
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

5. Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ--that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

5. Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

REJECTED
by the Synod of Dort
This was the system of thought contained in the "Remonstrance" (though the "five points" were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.

REAFFIRMED
by the Synod of Dort
This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into "five points" (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the "five points of Calvinism."

�

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You obviously don't understand Classical Arminianism. Notice I was careful to state "classical."

 

[thatbrian]

You obviously don't understand Classical Arminianism. Notice I was careful to state "classical."

Is that like when you play Bach in church?

From where I sit, the distinction is in "prevenient grace", which again, you will find no talk of in these forums. "Free will!" is the cry we hear, non-stop, which is why I assert there are very, very few true Arminians, here, or anywhere else.

A true Arminian would hold to the T, and U, and not have much to say regarding the P.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are plenty examples of men resisting the will of God for their lives. If God. In His sovereignty allows men to resist certain parts of His permissive will, how can you be sure He does not allow them to resist other parts?

Those who resisted were the lost, who stayed that state, where is there any indication that one that God determined to get saved rejected Him?

 

[Reynolds]

Those who resisted were the lost, who stayed that state, where is there any indication that one that God determined to get saved rejected Him?

You are playing a word game trap. "Determined" is an improper word for this context.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are playing a word game trap. "Determined" is an improper word for this context.

Again, were there any that Jesus said that he had called toi Himself as one of His own rejecting Him?

 

[Sapper Woody]

I might agree if I did that more than once. My post was an announcement to him that he has made it to the top of the list, and it was partially a gracious move because when I don't respond to his future posts he will know why, and he won't waste his time posting to me if he knows that I won't even see it.

You can fool yourself into thinking it was a gracious move. But the attitude of your post shows that it was anything but. It was a clear-cut schoolyard taunt.

Secondly, if you wish to call me names, it would be better to do so to my face. Doing so this way seems to be hypocritical, in light of your post. Some people have a tendency to throw around insults because of their perceived online-autonomy, but they would never speak that way to a brother in person, and they forget that God will hold them accountable for every careless word.

Where did I call you a name? If I did, kindly point to that in my post and I will gladly apologize. What I did was call your actions cowardly. And I stand by that. And this whole machismo of "Say it to my face" has been so overplayed on the internet, it's essentially a meme now. Especially since many on this board are/were military, alpha males. People who say what they think to your face.

If you took it as a personal insult, that's on you. I merely pointed out the cowardice of your actions. If you want to revise your post to be gracious, instead of a taunt, I'll gladly rescind my words.

 

[thatbrian]

You can fool yourself into thinking it was a gracious move. But the attitude of your post shows that it was anything but. It was a clear-cut schoolyard taunt.

Where did I call you a name? If I did, kindly point to that in my post and I will gladly apologize. What I did was call your actions cowardly. And I stand by that. And this whole machismo of "Say it to my face" has been so overplayed on the internet, it's essentially a meme now. Especially since many on this board are/were military, alpha males. People who say what they think to your face.

If you took it as a personal insult, that's on you. I merely pointed out the cowardice of your actions. If you want to revise your post to be gracious, instead of a taunt, I'll gladly rescind my words.

You are assuming, and we all know what happens there. Mind your business, please, and you and I will both be better off. There's no need for you to insert yourself into this.

FYI, you are #12. I'm here for serious discussion.

 

[InTheLight]

Secondly, if you wish to call me names, it would be better to do so to my face. Doing so this way seems to be hypocritical, in light of your post. Some people have a tendency to throw around insults because of their perceived online-autonomy, but they would never speak that way to a brother in person, and they forget that God will hold them accountable for every careless word.

This is rich.

So we are to believe that you would go up to professing born again Christians and ask them to their face: "What percentage of your salvation are you responsible for? I've heard anywhere from 1% to 50%. What percentage are you?"



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Sapper Woody]

You are assuming, and we all know what happens there. Mind your business, please, and you and I will both be better off. There's no need for you to insert yourself into this.

FYI, you are #12. I'm here for serious discussion.

I literally laughed out loud when I read this. You are posting on a public board, asking people to mind their business. No clue what #12 is, sorry. But if you were there for serious discussion, you wouldn't be resorting to school yard tactics and derailing your own thread with them.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[InTheLight]

I literally laughed out loud when I read this. You are posting on a public board, asking people to mind their business. No clue what #12 is, sorry. But if you were there for serious discussion, you wouldn't be resorting to school yard tactics and derailing your own thread with them.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Since Van was #1 on his list and got put on ignore I presume you are #12 and have a ways to go. I'm guessing I'm the new #1, or possibly was ahead of Van and am already on his list.

Wait for it...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Sapper Woody]

Since Van was #1 on his list and got put on ignore I presume you are #12 and have a ways to go. I'm guessing I'm the new #1, or possibly was ahead of Van and am already on his list.

Wait for it...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

I see. That makes sense. Now I'm curious who had me beat. As far as I know, I'm only on two people's ignore lists. But I'm proud to say I have zero people on ignore.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[thatbrian]

I have just two questions for all those who don't think God is sovereign in election.

First, does God draw all men, without exception, to Christ?

Second, will all men be saved?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

[Reynolds]

Again, were there any that Jesus said that he had called toi Himself as one of His own rejecting Him?

Of course not. I do not know of any classical Arminian who would argue that The Sovereign Father can not unconditionally elect a person or issue irresistible Grace to that person.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course not. I do not know of any classical Arminian who would argue that The Sovereign Father can not unconditionally elect a person or issue irresistible Grace to that person.

They would see it as God electing to see Grace to all sinners, and we can resist, or accept, as up to our will and determination!

 

[Reynolds]

They would see it as God electing to see Grace to all sinners, and we can resist, or accept, as up to our will and determination!

Not a Classical.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is rich.

So we are to believe that you would go up to professing born again Christians and ask them to their face: "What percentage of your salvation are you responsible for? I've heard anywhere from 1% to 50%. What percentage are you?"

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL