Two Salvations?

[tinytim]

J.Jump, what is the difference between spiritual salvation, and saving the soul?

And is there a more proper name for this doctrine besides "Millennial Exclusion?"

 

[tinytim]

I meant by a proper name as one that is recognizable to others that won't offend the ones that believe the doctrine.

Millennial Exclusion sounds like a slur to me, and I don't want to sound like I don't respect you, I just don't know exactly what to call it....

Maybe Jumpism? (That's a Joke!!!!)

 

[J. Jump]

J.Jump, what is the difference between spiritual salvation, and saving the soul?

Great question! As was stated in another thread about "soul-winning" today Christendom has gotten the wrong idea about what is involved in eternal salvation.

Man is spiritually dead and in capable of acting in the spiritual realm. That's why man can not earn his salvation and why an unsaved man is incapable of worshipping God, because God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. If man is spiritually dead that is an impossibility.

Man is in need of a Savior that can make his spirit alive, which is exactly what happens when man believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on his behalf a sinner (Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 - you can also see this in OT type in Genesis 1:2-3).

Since man is incapable of doing anything to bring himself out of this ruined state the doing had to be done by another capable. By the grace of God Christ has done for man what man couldn't do for himself. When you believe on that work done on your behalf then the Holy Spirit breathes life into that which had no life and makes one spiritually alive.

Once spiritually alive one is capable of acting in the spiritual realm and is capable of worshipping God.

Once man is made alive spiritually then and only then is his soul which is still in darkness (Hebrews 4:12 and also Genesis 1:2-3) able to be saved, because the saving of the soul is based on faith being mixed with works as Paul and James tell us in Romans and James. We can have all the faith we want to, but if works do not eminate out of that faith then our faith is useless or dead and will not save us.

I believe it was Linda that gave us the prayer of Paul that people be saved body, soul and spirit.

The Bible lays it out this way. I have been saved (finished works of Christ). I am being saved (faith mixed with works if that is happening) and I will be saved (future salvation where the soul finally meets the actual salvation and the body is then saved).

The soul has to do with sanctification and us separating ourselves from this world and joining ourselves with Christ as the men did with David in regard to his coming kingdom. Christ has gone away and is looking for faithful men to join Him in His coming kingdom.

The saving of the soul has to do with becoming a part of the bride of Christ that will rule and reign with Him during His coming kingdom. And just as we see in the OT the Holy Spirit like Abraham's servant has come into the family to ask the question will you go with this man. We can either answer in the positive or we can answer in the negative, but the choice is ours to make just as it was Rebecca's to make at that time.

There's a lot more that could be said, but that should give a general overview. Hope that helps Tim.

And as for a different wording or title for this doctrine I have always heard it as the Word of the Kingdom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

He told Nicodemus that He was going to be lifted up as the serpent in the wilderness was lifted up. But might I remind us that the serpent lifted up in the wilderness was something that was done on behalf of "saved" folks that had already experienced death and shed blood before the exodus out of Egypt, so that is not talking about the substitutionary death and shed blood of Christ, but Him being lifted up for something else.

Amen, J. Jump! Most people forget that Scriptures tell us that when the children of Israel were still in Egypt, they were already in the promised land [saved]. But, they set out on a journey to the better part of their inheritance, which began with their baptism in the Red Sea, and journeying through the wilderness [works after saved]. When the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, it was obviously after they left Egypt; they were saved.

There are many types that are given in the OT that many people relate to spiritual salvation, that if they are a picture of that, then salvation is of works and can be lost.

 

[Hope of Glory]

But I guess when you redefine words, decide that a saved person can go to Hell

You mean like redefining "hell" to mean "lake of fire"?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Christ was lifted for the salvation of His people. To say He shed His blood for any other reason than salvation is heresy and blaspheming the Word of God.

That's funny. My KJV Bible tells me that he died for all, but that his blood was shed for many. So, he died that all might be saved spiritually, but his blood was shed for his people, which means they're the ones who were already saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't have a lot of time right now... gotta get to the nursing home for an afternoon service, but I will respond to this.... You have a point about the different glasses.... we all have them. I grew up an IFB. I look at scripture with fundamental glasses. And those fundamental glasses does not agree with ME doctrine. I will admit, I interpret scripture with glasses... everyone does. You do with ME glasses.

I also grew up an IFB, and I look at Scripture with fundamental glasses. Those fundamental glasses don't see how you can not see the doctrine of the Kingdom, particularly when you look at the Greek text. When I went an SBC church, they started teaching these other doctrines (works aren't really works, and they looked at people as evolutionists do, in that he is a body and a soul or sprit, instead of what Scriptures say that he is a body, soul, and spirit.)

About half the Baptist churches that I visited when I was young taught Kingdom truths, about half were evangelicals, and a small percentage (the "about" part) taught something else. Now, the something else iis dominant.

Try reading your Bible without using the doctrine of ME. You can't. For you believe it is true. Therefore it will color anything you read...

The funny thing is, I grew up with it. J. Jump did not, if I remember correctly. Also, if I remember correctly, neither did James Newman. I don't know about Lacy and Jim1611. I think it would be fair to throw this accusation at me, but not at him. I can't look beyond the simple, straight-forward statements distinguishing spiritual salvation, which is a gift, from rewards in the coming Kingdom, which is based on works.

And furthermore, it is not reading into the scripture to compare the serpent in the wilderness with Christ... unless Jesus read into the scripture...

When did anyone say that they weren't compared?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Preaching that false doctrine of kingdom exclusion and the false doctrine of Egypt being the promised land, you are deceiving and being deceived by the same serpent that questioned God's Word in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I meant by a proper name as one that is recognizable to others that won't offend the ones that believe the doctrine.

Millennial Exclusion sounds like a slur to me, and I don't want to sound like I don't respect you, I just don't know exactly what to call it....

Well, I think it was intended as a slur by the person who originally used it here, but I don't take it as such. Remember, "Christian" was originally intended as a slur; are you offended by it?

As to the salvation of the soul, here's a sermon that has been asked to be repeated quite often. You can open it in a new window, download the mp3, and/or download the pdf: Salvation of the Soul

When one side argues that salvation is secure, and the other argues that it can be lost (because of works or lack of works), they use the same Bible to "prove" their sides. When you realize that spiritual salvation (everlasting) is a gift and not based on works, and the salvation of the soul ("aionian" or age-lasting life) are based on works and can be lost, many "contradictory" passages are cleared up.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Preaching that false doctrine of kingdom exclusion and the false doctrine of Egypt being the promised land, you are deceiving and being deceived by the same serpent that questioned God's Word in the Garden of Eden.

You sir, are challenging Scripture:

Genesis 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

They were in the Promised Land before they even left on their journey.

Of course, that's according to the Scriptures according to God and not man, which I understand, what God said is not always popular.

 

[tinytim]

Would it be fair to say that a person that believes that man is Bipartite instead of Tripartite could not believe in ME?

And BTW, I do know the difference between Hell and LOF... Hell is delivered up and cast into the LOF....

 

[whatever]

Would it be fair to say that a person that believes that man is Bipartite instead of Tripartite could not believe in ME?

Tiny,

I believe that man is bipartite and I also believe in YOU.

 

[Linda64]

Abrahamic covenant (Ge 12:1-3,7; 13:14-18; 15:1-21). God promised to bless Abraham and his nation and the entire world through his Seed. Jesus Christ is Abraham's Son and inherits these blessings and bestows them upon those who believe (Mt 1:1; Ga 3:6-29). The national, physical aspects of Abraham's covenant will yet be fulfilled to the nation Israel (Jer 30:1-24).

EGYPT

The nation located in the NE corner of Africa and neighboring Israel to the SW. Egypt has had a close relationship to the Jewish people throughout their history. The Israelites moved to Egypt during the time of Joseph and were later rescued from bondage in that land under Moses' leadership (Ex. 1-12). Since that time, Egypt has commonly been the enemy of Israel. Egypt is a type of the world.

MILLENNIUM

Millennium means 1,000, and refers to the 1,000 years mentioned in Re 20:2-7. This is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by O.T. prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isa 9:7). The Millennial reign is only one phase to Christ's eternal rule.

Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible

Egypt is NOT the promised land--never was the promised land. Genesis 15:18 is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[tinytim]

Let me make sure I understand this right....

When a person accepts Christ.... their spirit only is saved.
Then a person saves their own soul by works?

And if a person has only their spirit saved, and not their soul, then they will go to Hell during the 1,000 yr reign?

But if both spirit and soul are saved they get to be in the millennial Kingdom?

After the kingdom, the spiritually saved that are sent to hell will be raised to enter into eternity with God.
And the ones that were both spiritually saved and soulfully saved will go from the kingdom into eternity with God?

Is that right?

What happens when a person dies? Do you believe in soul sleep? or does the soul go to Heaven? What if their spirit is saved but their soul is not?

 

[tinytim]

Tiny,

I believe that man is bipartite and I also believe in YOU.

lol

ME = Millennial Exclusion... my phrase for this doctrine....

 

[Diggin in da Word]

ME - Man's Egotism

Is more like it, Tim. All the Kingdom Exclusion doctrine does is give many a holier-than-thou attitude, when the Word of God tells us to esteem others more than ourselves.

Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine where one can boast because they did certain works to gain kingdom entrance, when in fact we are to boast not in ourselves, but in the Lord and Him alone.

 

[Hope of Glory]

ME - Man's Egotism

Is more like it, Tim. All the Kingdom Exclusion doctrine does is give many a holier-than-thou attitude, when the Word of God tells us to esteem others more than ourselves.

Kingdom Exclusion is a doctrine where one can boast because they did certain works to gain kingdom entrance, when in fact we are to boast not in ourselves, but in the Lord and Him alone.

You mean, sort of like the ones who boast, "A saved person will commit good works, therefore I can judge the salvation of others and if they don't have good works, then they never were saved"?

You mean sort of egotistical like that?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Would it be fair to say that a person that believes that man is Bipartite instead of Tripartite could not believe in ME?

And BTW, I do know the difference between Hell and LOF... Hell is delivered up and cast into the LOF....

I think that anyone who reads the Scriptures and denies that man is a trichotomous being is denying the infallibility of Scripture.

But, I do know a small handful of people who think that man is dichotomous and still embraces Kingdom truths.

However, teaching that man is dichotomous is the teaching of natural evolutionists, in that man has a body and a soul or spirit. But, the Bible teaches that man has a body, soul, and spirit. The Bible tells us that even the animals have souls, but there is no place in Scriptures that tells us that animals have a spirit.

Once a person realizes that the soul and spirit are not the same, and they look at passages talking about works, it's always with the salvation of the soul in view. That's why some people think that works are required to be everlastingly saved. By the same token, the salvation of the soul can be lost (apollumi), and that's why some think that everlasting salvation can be lost.

When you see "apollumi", it has to do with perishing or losing something that you have. You cannot lose something you don't have, neither can you perish if you don't have life.

 

[Benjamin]

All were saved by faith and not works; God knows who those are that are His by their faith.

Jesus didn’t preach His substitutionary death and shed blood as it was to be revealed in a mystery for good reason. (1Co2:8) The ministration of death in the OT, although being glorious, was so in mans wisdom within that ministration of the Spirit, as these matters of righteousness, that God sent His Son as a propitiation, being a mystery had not entered into the heart of man, the works of the law only served pertaining to their consciences by carnal ordinances that were imposed on them until the reformation; it was not revealed to the OT people how they were to be made righteous, they obeyed the law by works, but they were not ever made perfect by these works and could not be, the works of the blood of bulls and goats did not ever save them, their faith did.

This claiming of the OT people being saved by the blood of animals then being compared back to show salvation by works for entrance to the kingdom in the NT is false doctrine based on a clear misunderstanding of God’s revelation of Glory; the loving grace of God through faith. The difference is in the ministration of the Spirit as today it is written in our hearts being fully revealed.

(Rom 4:13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

(Rom 4:14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

(Rom 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, thereis no transgression.

(Rom 4:16)Therefore itis of faith, that itmightbe by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



(Heb 10:4)For itis not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

(Heb 10:5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

(Heb 10:6)In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.



(Heb 9:8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

(Heb 9:9)Which wasa figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



(1Co 2:7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

(1Co 2:8)Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

(1Co 2:9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

(1Co 2:10)But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

(1Co 2:11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

(1Co 2:12)Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Benjamin]

(2Co 3:7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

(2Co 3:8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

(2Co 3:9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

(2Co 3:10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

(2Co 3:11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

(2Co 3:12) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

(2Co 3:13) And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: