Two Salvations?

[webdog]

It's "to the saints" - those who are showing an outward sign of being obedient

This is a definition you have applied to saint.

To "the faithful brethren" - Sort of redundant, because Matthew 12:50 tells us that "brethren" are those who are doing the will of the Father; "Brethren" are faithful saved people; not everyone who is saved is faithful.

Again, you cherry pick one verse out of the Bible to use as a wide stroke definition of what "brethern" means. Are you trying to tell me that everyone saved is not necessarily a "brother"? Wow.

 

[npetreley]

Linda no one has ever disputed that! Of course they are Christ's works in us, but God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit as if he did it himself.

Paul said "I" have finished the race. He said "I" have fought the good fight. Do you think Paul was boasting in what "he" did? Of course not. He understood that it was God's work that was being done, but he was getting credit for it as if he was doing it himself.

That's why in Revelation 19:8 we see that the wedding garment is made up of the righteous acts of the saints. The acts are credited to the saints account as if they were their own works.

I don't know why God laid it out in that manner, but He did, so I believe Him!

I've always found this hard to understand, too. But it sure seems to be what the Bible says.

 

[Hope of Glory]

This is a definition you have applied to saint.

Elsewhere on this board, I have used massive amounts of Scripture to support this. It's a definition that I apply, based upon what Scripture says. Line upon line, and all that.

If I'm incorrect, please show me where. Before I preach something, I do my best to discredit it so that I am not preaching an untruth. Sometimes I miss something. Sometimes I see something that I've been missing my entire life because of the doctrines of men, and I've been taught my entire life that everyone who is saved is a "saint". But, Scripture doesn't support that notion.

Again, you cherry pick one verse out of the Bible to use as a wide stroke definition of what "brethern" means. Are you trying to tell me that everyone saved is not necessarily a "brother"? Wow.

Once again, line upon line. Show me a verse to show otherwise. I could be wrong.

 

[James_Newman]

OK, ME proponants, how do you answer that verse?...

The phrase "Hath translated" is past tense.
Did paul secretly know that he would be part of the kingdom?

Well, there is one sense that we are translated into the kingdom. Obviously we are not experiencially in the kingdom today, it is a future kingdom that we still seek. But we have been made heirs with Christ. But that doesn't imply that we cannot lose that position. One thing to notice is the people the letter is addressed to are called faithful by Paul.

Colossians 1:2-4
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.

So Paul is writing to encourage those who are already walking the straight and narrow path. Nevertheless, Paul is not willing to pass up an opportunity to remind the Colossians of the dangers of losing the reward.

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Colossians 3:23-25
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done; and there is no respect of persons.

Paul says that they know they shall receive the reward, if they do these things, and do them heartily as unto the Lord:
Colossians 3:12-22
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done; and there is no respect of persons.

Over and over in the OT, God talks about the land that He will give to the Israelites. It sounds a lot like the promises we have in the NT.

Exodus 6:8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for a heritage: I am the LORD.

Exodus 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.

Leviticus 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

But we see that not all the children of Israel were able to enter into this land. Even Moses himself was excluded from entering! In fact of the whole generation that went out of Egypt, only faithful Caleb and Joshua were allowed to enter.

Deuteronomy 1:35-36 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I swore to give unto your fathers, 36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

 

[Linda64]

SAINT

"Saint" means one who is set apart for God. The words "saint," "holy," and "sanctify" are from the same Greek words. In the N.T. the term "saint" is applied to all true Christians, not merely to believers who are unusually pure. Even the carnal Christians at Corinth were called saints.

(2Co 1:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Christians are not saints because they are sinless; they are saints because they have a sinless Savior and He has removed their sin from before God (Re 1:5-6; 1Pe 2:9-10).

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6)

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

Way of Life Encyclopedia

Kingdom Exclusion divides up the body of Christ into the "haves and the have nots". This doctrine divides all saved people into two distinct groups: those who are overcomers and those who are not; those who inherit the kingdom and those who do not, those who are partakers of Christ and those who are not, those who will reign with Christ and those who will not, etc. This doctrine makes God a "respector of persons." This is NOT biblical, not matter how you pull ("cherry pick") scripture out of context.

For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11)

Here is the gospel in a nutshell:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

If you say that the Israelites were "saved" when they left Egypt, why didn't Jesus set up His Kingdom when He came the first time?

 

[James_Newman]

SAINT

"Saint" means one who is set apart for God. The words "saint," "holy," and "sanctify" are from the same Greek words. In the N.T. the term "saint" is applied to all true Christians, not merely to believers who are unusually pure. Even the carnal Christians at Corinth were called saints.

(2Co 1:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

Christians are not saints because they are sinless; they are saints because they have a sinless Savior and He has removed their sin from before God (Re 1:5-6; 1Pe 2:9-10).

Positionally we are all saints, but practically we must walk as saints.
Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Translation ; You are a saint, act like one.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6)

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

Way of Life Encyclopedia

Kingdom Exclusion divides up the body of Christ into the "haves and the have nots". This doctrine divides all saved people into two distinct groups: those who are overcomers and those who are not; those who inherit the kingdom and those who do not, those who are partakers of Christ and those who are not, those who will reign with Christ and those who will not, etc. This doctrine makes God a "respector of persons." This is NOT biblical, not matter how you pull ("cherry pick") scripture out of context.

For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:11)

Here is the gospel in a nutshell:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

If you say that the Israelites were "saved" when they left Egypt, why didn't Jesus set up His Kingdom when He came the first time?

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

If the blood is not how we get saved, then what must I do to be saved? Why didn't Christ set up His kingdom when He resurrected?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Since the Word of God tells us the saved will be in the first resurrection and the unsaved in the second, and that those who stand before Jesus and are turned away with the fateful words, 'Depart from me, I never knew you', I submit to you that the kingdom exclusion for the saved doctrine is a lie straight from the devil himself.

 

[webdog]

Mat 16:18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.
Mat 16:19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven."

It is pretty clear that in context the church is being referenced as to who gets the "keys" of the Kingdom.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you say that the Israelites were "saved" when they left Egypt, why didn't Jesus set up His Kingdom when He came the first time?

Interesting. You ask this question, yet the children of Israel had to wander through the wilderness for 40 years, with all those who were alive when the left perishing (except for a couple), before they entered the Kingdom.

It's like saved people today. They wander through the wilderness, and many will perish (lose their soul), and one day they hope to enter the Kingdom.

Your question emphasizes the point that I was trying to make.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Your analogy is nothing less that idiocy.

The two Israelites entered the kingdom? I find nowhere in the Scripture to attest to such a statement.

Many saved people will lose their souls while hoping to enter the kingdom?

How absurd!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Your analogy is nothing less that idiocy.

The two Israelites entered the kingdom? I find nowhere in the Scripture to attest to such a statement.

Many saved people will lose their souls while hoping to enter the kingdom?

How absurd!

Let's see...

Scripture

or

Diggin

I'll take Scripture.

At least Linda posts Scripture to back up her argument.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Funny, Diggin has posted more Scripture to support his view on kingdom exclusion being a false doctrine than any of you have to prove it is truth.

Diggin is correct. it is nothing less than idiocy to claim two israelites entered the kingdom and it is absolutely absurd to claim saved people will lose their souls.

.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

HoG,

Please show me scripture to show the two Israelites (I reckon you mean Caleb and Joshua) entered the kingdom.

And while you are at it, show me scripture to support your view that a saved person can lose their soul.

 

[James_Newman]

Since the Word of God tells us the saved will be in the first resurrection and the unsaved in the second, and that those who stand before Jesus and are turned away with the fateful words, 'Depart from me, I never knew you', I submit to you that the kingdom exclusion for the saved doctrine is a lie straight from the devil himself.

No, the Word says 'blessed and holy' are they that have part in the first resurrection. You would have to be able to show that all believers are holy, and I don't think that has been properly demonstrated.

1 John 3:6-7
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

But the Word does say that all believers will be raised up on the last day! Praise the Lord!

 

[J. Jump]

Funny, Diggin has posted more Scripture to support his view on kingdom exclusion being a false doctrine than any of you have to prove it is truth.

Diggin is correct. it is nothing less than idiocy to claim two israelites entered the kingdom and it is absolutely absurd to claim saved people will lose their souls.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Please show me scripture to show the two Israelites (I reckon you mean Caleb and Joshua) entered the kingdom.

They entered the promised land. The kingdom was never set up the way God intended it to be, because the Israelites were not obedient to His commands. A kingdom was set up, but it wasn't the everlasting kingdom it was meant to me and one day will be.

And while you are at it, show me scripture to support your view that a saved person can lose their soul.

For the sake of those that are following this thread, but not posting I will answer this question which has already been answered in this thread.

Matthew 7 - 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 9:18-27 (the life that is mentioned in verse 24 is the same word Greek word for soul), Matthew 16:24-28, Mark 8:27-38

And there are plenty of others, but that should be a start.

 

[Benjamin]

Yep, the gate is narrow:

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Christ is not divided, only through Him do we have access in one Spirit.

(Eph 2:18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(Eph 2:19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:

(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[J. Jump]

Yep, the gate is narrow:

Except the gate is not speaking of spiritual salvation as you concluded in your Ephesians 2 Scripture passage. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture, but it has to be like Scripture with like Scripture.

The broad and narrow gate passage was spoken to believers about believers, not unbelievers. It has nothing to do with spiritual (eternal) salvation.

 

[Benjamin]

Seeking to be justified by your own works is the same thing Paul addresses to the Galatians:

(Gal 2:4) And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

(Gal 2:5) To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

(Gal 2:6) But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Seems Paul lived by faith, these guy aren’t adding anything to him, nor will they today to me, being created in Christ Jesus onto good works.

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The foolish Galatians had to be reminded of how they were saved, and how they were made perfect:

(Gal 3:2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Looks like the same thing is going on today, right here on this board! It creeps in preaching a second salvation, another Gospel, trying to tutor us into the bondage of doing our own works, but those that have put on Christ will not believe it for one minute and the truth of the Gospel will continue with us.

(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Redeemed in Christ, made a new creature in Him, His work, God’s Glory, built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, believing in God’s propitiation for my sins, born again, and no one will take me out of His hand by preaching a second salvation by our own works.

(Gal 3:22) But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

It is finished and I believe. Praise God.

 

[James_Newman]

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, what are you going to do with this?

 

[webdog]

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, what are you going to do with this?

RWP nails this one...

Is justified (dikaioutai). Present passive indicative of dikaioō, here not "is made righteous," but "is shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith, not the initial act of being set right with God (Paul’s idea in Rom_4:1-10).