Two Thoughts

[Piper]

1. That Jesus left no sin unpaid for when He died for all people's sins.

2. That belief is belief, not obedience.

Explain
Matthew 12:30: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[37818]

They are that way in this life as well.

Psalms 126:6.

It is like, Matthew 25:31-32, ". . . When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: . . ."

John 10:27, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, . . ."

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you believe that we have to persevere in good works to be saved?

See. This is why we have systematic theology. My answer is a resounding YES. Does that mean that I have to wait and see if I did enough to pass some kind of a test? NO. Who are the folks that persevere in good works? The elect, chosen before the foundation of the world. Can I use my life and practice of good works to give assurance to myself that I am elect? Yes. Is it the only assurance I have? No. Some of the assurance comes from the saving faith you come to Christ with. Some comes from other things found in the Bible that the elect have - love of God, love of neighbors, loving other Christians and desiring to be in God's kingdom and under His rule. I can examine myself and see if I have any of these things. Do any of these things or "conditions" that I observe the elect have or do - help in any way in the sense that some merit is added to me by my doing them? No.

 

[Silverhair]

Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.
Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles, and is, by Clement of Alexandria, called an apostle. He is thought by someto be the same Clement the apostle Paul speaks of, in Philippians4:3, as one of his fellow-laborers. He wrote an epistle in the name
of the church at Rome to the church at Corinth, about the year 69,
which is the earliest piece of antiquity next to the writings of the apostles extant, being written when some of them were living,
even before the apostle John wrote his Epistles, and the book of the Revelation, and while the temple at Jerusalem was yet standing. In this epistle are several things relating to the doctrine of election, and which greatly serve to confirm it.

For,
1. Agreeable to the apostolic doctrine, that God worketh all things after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11), that his purposes shall stand, and that whatsoever he has determined shall come to
pass, Clement affirms, that "when he wills, and as he wills, he does all things;" kai ouden mh tarelqh twn dedogmatwmenwn up
autou, and that "none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away," or be unaccomplished: which shows his sense
of the dependency of all things upon the will of God, and of the immutability of his decrees in general.

2. He not only frequently makes mention of persons under the character of the elect of God, but also intimates, that there is a certain, special, and peculiar number of them fixed by him.

Speaking of the schism and sedition in the church at Corinth, he represents it as what was "very unbecoming, and should be far from toiv eklektoiv tou Qeou, the elect of God."

And elsewhere having cited Psalm 18:26, he says, "Let us therefore join ourselves to the innocent and righteous, for eisin outoi eklektoi
tou Qeou, they are the elect of God;" that is, they appear to be so,

Now if we hold to your idea that God has to determine all things as your comments above show then we run into a problem as that then would require that God determines all things including evil and we know that is not so. So with that in mind what do we find that other ECF said.

Origen (circa 185–254)
It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be....
Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books.
(Book 7 of his commentary on the epistle to the Romans (Romans chapter 8))


Jerome (circa 347 – 420)
For Adam did not sin because God knew that he would do so; but God in as much as He is God, foreknew what Adam would do of his own free choice.
(Against the Pelagians. Book 3 part 6)

Justin Martyr (circa 100 – 165)
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed.

God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen but He does not have to cause all that happens as your theology requires. In fact we find things that happen that God did not want to happen.

Jesus poignantly laments, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω G2309] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω G2309]” (Matthew 23:37; cf. Luke 13:34; John 5:40). Notice that, by the same verb (θέλω G2309), Christ’s will is directly opposed by the will of humans. [France, The Gospel of Matthew, 883; Nolland, The Gospel of Matthew, 951 ]

In many other instances, God’s will is unfulfilled. God does not desire or have “pleasure” [חפץ H2654 ] in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11). However, many reject him. [Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 1–24 (NICOT; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1997), 589 ]

Therefore, God’s will is not unilaterally efficacious; some factor or factors bring about states of affairs contrary to God’s will that cause him grief and bring him to judgment, though he “does not afflict willingly” (Lamentations 3:33; cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). Indeed, God is profoundly troubled at the thought of bringing judgment against his people. Thus, he declares over his wayward people, “How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled” (Hosea 11:8). However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24). God states that he called his people, “but My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries” (Psalms 81:11-14).
If God unilaterally determines the wills of all creatures, how can one make sense of such statements? Why would God lament and long for his people to “listen” to him when he is the one who has unilaterally determined that they would not listen to him? [Does God Always Get What He Wants? A Theocentric Approach to Divine Providence And Human Freedom, John C. Peckham, Andrews University ]

 

[Alan Gross]

Now if we hold to your idea that God has to determine all things as your comments above show then we run into a problem as that then would require that God determines all things including evil and we know that is not so. So with that in mind what do we find that other ECF said.

Origen (circa 185–254)
It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be....
Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books.
(Book 7 of his commentary on the epistle to the Romans (Romans chapter 8))


Jerome (circa 347 – 420)
For Adam did not sin because God knew that he would do so; but God in as much as He is God, foreknew what Adam would do of his own free choice.
(Against the Pelagians. Book 3 part 6)

Justin Martyr (circa 100 – 165)
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed.

God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen but He does not have to cause all that happens as your theology requires. In fact we find things that happen that God did not want to happen.

Jesus poignantly laments, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω G2309] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω G2309]” (Matthew 23:37; cf. Luke 13:34; John 5:40). Notice that, by the same verb (θέλω G2309), Christ’s will is directly opposed by the will of humans. [France, The Gospel of Matthew, 883; Nolland, The Gospel of Matthew, 951 ]

In many other instances, God’s will is unfulfilled. God does not desire or have “pleasure” [חפץ H2654 ] in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11). However, many reject him. [Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 1–24 (NICOT; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1997), 589 ]

Therefore, God’s will is not unilaterally efficacious; some factor or factors bring about states of affairs contrary to God’s will that cause him grief and bring him to judgment, though he “does not afflict willingly” (Lamentations 3:33; cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). Indeed, God is profoundly troubled at the thought of bringing judgment against his people. Thus, he declares over his wayward people, “How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled” (Hosea 11:8). However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24). God states that he called his people, “but My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries” (Psalms 81:11-14).
If God unilaterally determines the wills of all creatures, how can one make sense of such statements? Why would God lament and long for his people to “listen” to him when he is the one who has unilaterally determined that they would not listen to him? [Does God Always Get What He Wants? A Theocentric Approach to Divine Providence And Human Freedom, John C. Peckham, Andrews University ]

"I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things." Isiah 45:7

Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.
Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles and predates "Calvin",
on the Doctrines of Grace, over 1500 year.

 

[Alan Gross]

Well that explains a lot. Your type of dead men can't sin either. Bad unsound theology on your part.

"...and sins". Ephesians 2:1b

 

[Alan Gross]

Now if we hold to your idea that God has to determine all things as your comments above show then we run into a problem as that then would require that God determines all things including evil and we know that is not so. So with that in mind what do we find that other ECF said.

Origen (circa 185–254)
It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be....
Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books.
(Book 7 of his commentary on the epistle to the Romans (Romans chapter 8))


Jerome (circa 347 – 420)
For Adam did not sin because God knew that he would do so; but God in as much as He is God, foreknew what Adam would do of his own free choice.
(Against the Pelagians. Book 3 part 6)

Justin Martyr (circa 100 – 165)
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed.

God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen but He does not have to cause all that happens as your theology requires. In fact we find things that happen that God did not want to happen.

Jesus poignantly laments, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω G2309] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω G2309]” (Matthew 23:37; cf. Luke 13:34; John 5:40). Notice that, by the same verb (θέλω G2309), Christ’s will is directly opposed by the will of humans. [France, The Gospel of Matthew, 883; Nolland, The Gospel of Matthew, 951 ]

In many other instances, God’s will is unfulfilled. God does not desire or have “pleasure” [חפץ H2654 ] in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11). However, many reject him. [Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 1–24 (NICOT; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1997), 589 ]

Therefore, God’s will is not unilaterally efficacious; some factor or factors bring about states of affairs contrary to God’s will that cause him grief and bring him to judgment, though he “does not afflict willingly” (Lamentations 3:33; cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). Indeed, God is profoundly troubled at the thought of bringing judgment against his people. Thus, he declares over his wayward people, “How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled” (Hosea 11:8). However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24). God states that he called his people, “but My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries” (Psalms 81:11-14).
If God unilaterally determines the wills of all creatures, how can one make sense of such statements? Why would God lament and long for his people to “listen” to him when he is the one who has unilaterally determined that they would not listen to him? [Does God Always Get What He Wants? A Theocentric Approach to Divine Providence And Human Freedom, John C. Peckham, Andrews University ]

God is profoundly troubled

Wrong God you birds have.

However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24

He Gave these up to their sin.
The flesh only chooses sin, like a lot of this talk.


So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices.

 

[Silverhair]

"I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things." Isiah 45:7

Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.
Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles and predates "Calvin",
on the Doctrines of Grace, over 1500 year.

Christ Jesus, lived in the times of the apostles and predates "predates Clemens Romanus." and I would say is a much better authority.

 

[Alan Gross]

Now if we hold to your idea that God has to determine all things as your comments above show then we run into a problem as that then would require that God determines all things including evil and we know that is not so. So with that in mind what do we find that other ECF said.

Origen (circa 185–254)
It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be....
Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books.
(Book 7 of his commentary on the epistle to the Romans (Romans chapter 8))


Jerome (circa 347 – 420)
For Adam did not sin because God knew that he would do so; but God in as much as He is God, foreknew what Adam would do of his own free choice.
(Against the Pelagians. Book 3 part 6)

Justin Martyr (circa 100 – 165)
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed.

God is omniscient so He knows all that will happen but He does not have to cause all that happens as your theology requires. In fact we find things that happen that God did not want to happen.

Jesus poignantly laments, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [θέλω G2309] to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling [θέλω G2309]” (Matthew 23:37; cf. Luke 13:34; John 5:40). Notice that, by the same verb (θέλω G2309), Christ’s will is directly opposed by the will of humans. [France, The Gospel of Matthew, 883; Nolland, The Gospel of Matthew, 951 ]

In many other instances, God’s will is unfulfilled. God does not desire or have “pleasure” [חפץ H2654 ] in the death of the wicked but desires repentance (Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11). However, many reject him. [Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel: Chapters 1–24 (NICOT; Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1997), 589 ]

Therefore, God’s will is not unilaterally efficacious; some factor or factors bring about states of affairs contrary to God’s will that cause him grief and bring him to judgment, though he “does not afflict willingly” (Lamentations 3:33; cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). Indeed, God is profoundly troubled at the thought of bringing judgment against his people. Thus, he declares over his wayward people, “How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I surrender you, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart is turned over within Me, All My compassions are kindled” (Hosea 11:8). However, finally God gives people over to their own choices (cf. Romans 1:24). God states that he called his people, “but My people did not listen to My voice, And Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries” (Psalms 81:11-14).
If God unilaterally determines the wills of all creatures, how can one make sense of such statements? Why would God lament and long for his people to “listen” to him when he is the one who has unilaterally determined that they would not listen to him? [Does God Always Get What He Wants? A Theocentric Approach to Divine Providence And Human Freedom, John C. Peckham, Andrews University ]

Christ Jesus, lived in the times of the apostles and predates "predates Clemens Romanus." and I would say is a much better authority.

Right, "you will not come unto Me
that you might have Life."

 

[Silverhair]

"...and sins". Ephesians 2:1b

If they were dead as the calvinist likes to say, dead like a corpse, so that they can not turn to Christ in faith then how can that dead man sin? You are avoiding the obvious outcome of your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong God you birds have.



He Gave these up to their sin.
The flesh only chooses sin, like a lot of this talk.


So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart to walk in their own devices.

So your saying that since I follow Christ Jesus then He is the wrong God to follow. If He is not the right God then what God do you think one should follow? You follow calvin or the DoG which do not agree with scripture and from your comments I have to wonder what God you follow since you say Christ is the wrong one.

 

[Silverhair]

Right, "you will not come unto Me
that you might have Life."

You do realize that the text you just quoted proves free will or did you miss that point.

 

[KenH]

Can I use my life and practice of good works to give assurance to myself that I am elect? Yes.

No. The assurance that one who is in Christ has is the finished work of Christ on behalf of all those for whom He is their surety.

 

[KenH]

Psalms 126:6.

It is like, Matthew 25:31-32, ". . . When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: . . ."

John 10:27, ". . . My sheep hear my voice, . . ."

Nothing you quoted disagreed with what I said.


Matthew 13:27-30 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares.

 

[Alan Gross]

You do realize that the text you just quoted proves free will or did you miss that point.

It proves they have no will, except to choose the darkness and unbelief of their flesh.

That is the only free will a lost person has.

 

[Alan Gross]

Nothing you quoted disagreed with what I said.


Matthew 13:27-30 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares.

True.

"The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares."

 

[Silverhair]

It proves they have no will, except to choose the darkness and unbelief of their flesh.

That is the only free will a lost person has.

Alan then by your own words you have just made God the one responsible for all those condemned to hell. Remember your the ones that keep shouting God is sovereign and nothing happens unless He decrees it. And since you say man can only have a free will to sin then that means God has to be the one that made them that way.

Remember all of us were lost prior to trusting in Christ Jesus but your going to say that He chose a select few to save which means that all those that He did not pick were condemned not because they sin but because He did not pick them so that they could trust in the Son.

A consistent Calvinist, which I would assume you are, must fully embrace divine decretal determinism. If that is the case, then God is the sole reason for our hatred of Him. He decreed it from eternity and we are powerless to resist that decree. We are powerless to resist His decree to hate Him, that is if Calvinism is true.
So why should God be angry with the sin He causes us to commit and the hatred He causes us to have towards Him? Indeed, when we hate Him, rebel against Him, reject Him and sin against Him, we are perfectly fulfilling His will for us.
So the question becomes why would "Christ justly reproves them with greater severity." as Calvin says? The Calvinist; view makes for a confusing and irrational view of God.

 

[KenH]

So why should God be angry with the sin He causes us to commit and the hatred He causes us to have towards Him?

Romans 9:19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Alan Gross]

No. The assurance that one who is in Christ has is the finished work of Christ on behalf of all those for whom He is their surety.

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Romans 8:16.

Those "free willers" with no assurance
do not have two nickels to rub together.

They are in fear of loosing their 'salvation'
and the sooner they do, the better,
to get Real Spirit-Filled Regeneration.

Repentance and Faith.

Not just, blind faith.

 

[Silverhair]

True.

"The wheat and tares grow together in this life. The wheat are already wheat and the tares are already tares."

But in your deterministic view since God has determined what each one would be then why does God judge the tares as they are just what He determined them to be so they are just fulfilling what He determined. That is how illogical calvinism has made God to be, He determines all the sin then judges them for the sin He determined them to commit. Cognitive Dissonance at it's finest.