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Two Thoughts

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DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
You do not think that God would actually allow for man to have an equal chance to trust in Him? I find that odd as I have been told that God is just by many calvinistt.
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You don't observe that kind of justice in life. Last Saturday I heard a Christian brother who just got out of Afghanistan. In his story are all kinds of things that worked together for him and his immediate family that went WAY beyond hearing the gospel and then being given an equal chance to respond. He thought it was all Providential even though to my knowledge he is not a Calvinist. It's even quite common for folks in those regions to have dreams about Christ - but not everyone has or is entitled to the same experience. Your mistake is that you are coming at this with a presupposition that men are neutral towards God to start with and really could or would look at submitting to God and the proposals of the Gospel the same way they would examine any other proposal or contract. Scripture says that is not true and our experience and human history agrees with this also.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Alan Gross said:
So, what is it you believe
about the lost sinner being "dead", again?
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Well it sure does not mean dead like a corpse laying on the bottom of the ocean. Man is separated from God by his sin but that does not mean that he can not hear and understand the gospel message.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
The Bible says that Christ came to die for His sheep, not the goats.
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Ken you still ignore the other verses I have posted for you a number of times, why is that? Do they not fit your theology are are they not in your bible? Ignoring those verses will not change what they say.

Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Yes He died for those that believe in Him but He also died for those that will not do that.
 
Piper

Piper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Guido said:
If there is a sin for which one cannot be forgiven, then Christ did not die for their sins, because if He did, that sin would be included. Moreover, people are not condemned for any sin that they do, but because they have never believed on Christ.

Also, if faith is obedience, why is it distinguished from works in James 2? The faith in John 3:16 cannot be the faith in James 2, if faith is obedience. Why does it say faith without works is dead, if faith does not mean to simply believe?
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I am not sure what you are trying to get at. What are you trying to prove?
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Yes He died for those that believe in Him but He also died for those that will not do that.
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No. Anyone for whom Christ paid their sin debt cannot be lost.

From whence this fear and unbelief,
If God, my Father, put to grief
His spotless Son for me?
Can He, the righteous Judge of men,
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged to Thee?

Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er Thy people owed;
How, then, can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in God’s righteousness,
And sprinkled by Thy blood?

If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine;
Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

Turn then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in His efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.

- hymn written by Augustus Toplady
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Click to expand...

v. 8 "us", "we", "us" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 9 "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 10 "we" "we" "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
No. Anyone for whom Christ paid their sin debt cannot be lost.

From whence this fear and unbelief,
If God, my Father, put to grief
His spotless Son for me?
Can He, the righteous Judge of men,
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged to Thee?

Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er Thy people owed;
How, then, can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in God’s righteousness,
And sprinkled by Thy blood?

If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine;
Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

Turn then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in His efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.

- hymn written by Augustus Toplady
Click to expand...

Christ died to pay the sin debt of all men.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
v. 8 "us", "we", "us" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 9 "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 10 "we" "we" "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
Click to expand...

Notice that all those were sinners and the bible says they were saved because they believed the gospel message.
 
KenH

KenH

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Notice that all those were sinners and the bible says they were saved because they believed the gospel message.
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Yes, even God's elect are sinners by nature, by practice, including after they are saved. See Romans chapter 7 and what the apostle Paul had to say about his battle against his flesh.
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Well it sure does not mean dead like a corpse laying on the bottom of the ocean. Man is separated from God by his sin but that does not mean that he can not hear and understand the gospel message.
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That is why I thought you were unsound.

To me, dead means dead
and to you dead means alive.

Strong work.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
KenH said:
v. 8 "us", "we", "us" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 9 "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
v. 10 "we" "we" "we" - the Christians(God's elect, Christ's sheep) in Rome that Paul was writing to.
Click to expand...

Ken you have got to get out of theological box that you are in. The bible does not revolve around calvinism as you seem to think it does.
 
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