Two Thoughts

[robycop3]

Bottom line:

Mark 3:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Luke 12:10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

END OF DISCUSSION !

 

[37818]

Do not fall for that false teaching of those who teach that Christ paid the sin debt of people who will not be saved.

2 Peter 2:1, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."

Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Christ paid for the sins of the lost false teachers. So He is their owner and so will be their Judge.

 

[Silverhair]

The General Call to all of Mankind is never answered and only leaves the lost sinner guilty.

This:

"Or are we to see this is the light of the message of God that all those that desire to come to Him may?"

is right, because God Gives the Desire, Spiritually, that they don't have otherwise.

That Effectual Call is never resisted.

The fact that you continue to deny scripture if favor of your calvinism is clear in your posts.

Using your words "God Gives the Desire, Spiritually, that they don't have otherwise" so if one does not trust in the Son it is because God did not give them the desire and as you say "That Effectual Call is never resisted" so only some are chosen so all those that He does not give that desire or are not effectually called really do have a valid excuse or they could just say that they were actually doing what God decreed for them so why are they being punished for just doing what God wanted.

See what a mess your errant theology causes when you think it through.

 

[Silverhair]

Essau, Haman, and Cain
have been in Hell a long time.

Did they make free will choices or did God determine that they would do what they did. Only two options Alan which one is it?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, they are. Do not fall for that false teaching of those who teach that Christ paid the sin debt of people who will not be saved.

Romans 7:11-24 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Would these be the same ones that Christ came to save
Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

And why would Christ Jesus do this
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Calvinism says Christ only came to save some while the bible says He came to save all. Why some on here do not trust scripture I do not know but it seems they do not.

 

[Alan Gross]

The fact that you continue to deny scripture if favor of your calvinism is clear in your posts.

Using your words "God Gives the Desire, Spiritually, that they don't have otherwise" so if one does not trust in the Son it is because God did not give them the desire and as you say "That Effectual Call is never resisted" so only some are chosen so all those that He does not give that desire or are not effectually called really do have a valid excuse or they could just say that they were actually doing what God decreed for them so why are they being punished for just doing what God wanted.

See what a mess your errant theology causes when you think it through.

Sinners sin because they are sinners
and love darkness and Not God.

And God Hates all workers of iniquity.

What does that have to do with me?

 

[Alan Gross]

Did they make free will choices or did God determine that they would do what they did. Only two options Alan which one is it?

By the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, He left them in sin where He found them and Gave them Up, to their own sin.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave it is not all questions falling back into that debate. When a theological; view distorts what the bible teaches that that needs to be pointed out. Would you not agree? Even your Calvin quote shows that man has the ability to accept or reject the gospel message via their own free will.

Yes, the quote was on purpose. There is no need to lock yourself into a system to the point where you can't read clear scriptural warnings and heed them. Calvin himself didn't do that so you cannot demand that we do that just because God is sovereign. Calvinist theology, taken to it's logical end point, I think, can become confusing. But it's the same with Arminianism. There, to deal with election you have to make it refer to groups only. And to somehow leave room for the Holy Spirit there has to be a "prevenient" grace given to everyone equally so that the free will is also not left out. None of that is scriptural but that's OK. No, the real trouble with Calvinism is that it does a good job of finding support from scripture with troubling verses that go against our independence and self sufficiency. I was hoping that with the subject of this thread we could just look at the subject at hand because it seems to me at least to raise the issues of us offending God to the point of being lost forever.

 

[Silverhair]

The General Call to all of Mankind is never answered and only leaves the lost sinner guilty.

This:

"Or are we to see this is the light of the message of God that all those that desire to come to Him may?"

is right, because God Gives the Desire, Spiritually, that they don't have otherwise.

That Effectual Call is never resisted.

That is just your calvinist theology coming through Alan.

 

[Silverhair]

By the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, He left them in sin where He found them and Gave them Up, to their own sin.

But if your version of God determines all things then He is the one that determined that they would sin so why would He judge them for doing what He had determined for them to do. Could they have done otherwise?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, the quote was on purpose. There is no need to lock yourself into a system to the point where you can't read clear scriptural warnings and heed them. Calvin himself didn't do that so you cannot demand that we do that just because God is sovereign. Calvinist theology, taken to it's logical end point, I think, can become confusing. But it's the same with Arminianism. There, to deal with election you have to make it refer to groups only. And to somehow leave room for the Holy Spirit there has to be a "prevenient" grace given to everyone equally so that the free will is also not left out. None of that is scriptural but that's OK. No, the real trouble with Calvinism is that it does a good job of finding support from scripture with troubling verses that go against our independence and self sufficiency. I was hoping that with the subject of this thread we could just look at the subject at hand because it seems to me at least to raise the issues of us offending God to the point of being lost forever.

Dave I agree it is because we offend God that we deserve and are punished and if calvinism did not hold that God had to determine everything then they would actually understand that. But if one is forced to do the offending then why are they judged for something over which they had no control. And how can one be offended by something that they have forced the other person to do?

God is sovereign and that is why I do not understand why so many calvinists do do want to allow Him to actually be sovereign. You do not think that God would actually allow for man to have an equal chance to trust in Him? I find that odd as I have been told that God is just by many calvinistt. Now I know what it means for God to be just and I know that the bible says He is just so do calvinists have a different meaning for just?

The real difference is that the bible presents God as actually allowing all men the ability to trust in Him but calvinism says that He only allows a select group to have that ability and that is after He has already saved them.

 

[Silverhair]

Sinners sin because they are sinners
and love darkness and Not God.

And God Hates all workers of iniquity.

What does that have to do with me?

You look at man as if he does not have the God given ability to turn and trust in Christ Jesus. Why is that Alan, do you not believe that God actually wants all to be saved? That is why He sent His son, so that those that hear the gospel and believe the gospel would be saved.

It is sad that you have such a limited view of the love of God for His creation.

 

[Alan Gross]

That is just your calvinist theology coming through Alan.

You're darn tootin'. All systematic and Biblical.

If you can't Preach that, don't bring your guns to town.

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/index.php?dir=John Gill/&file=JG_Body of Divinity Vol 1.pdf

 

[Silverhair]

By the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, He left them in sin where He found them and Gave them Up, to their own sin.

Determinant Counsel, that is where your theology errors. You have God as the sole determining factor but then blame man for being the sinner that your version of God made them.

 

[Alan Gross]

There are basically two views of how God brings one to salvation, either God has determined all that will be saved and only they will be saved or He has provided the information so that man can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

There are not 'two ways'. There is One Way of Salvation.

You look at man as if he does not have the God given ability to turn and trust in Christ Jesus.

Of course, not. That is God's Revelation of the lost sinner being, "dead". Something not in you "Study of God".

Why is that Alan

the lost sinner being, "dead".

do you not believe that God actually wants all to be saved?

Of course, not. That is God's Revelation to Mankind.

That is why He sent His son, so that those that hear the gospel and believe the gospel would be saved.

"those that hear the gospel and believe the gospel would be saved"
are, "The Elect", thanks to God, or ALL WOULD GO to HELL. ALL.

It is sad that you have such a limited view of the love of God for His creation.

God's Creation REBELLED AGAINST Him, in sin,
the way you do ALL the TIME.

 

[Silverhair]

You're darn tootin'. All systematic and Biblical.

If you can't Preach that, don't bring your guns to town.

https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/index.php?dir=John Gill/&file=JG_Body of Divinity Vol 1.pdf

The fact that you have to have a systematic theology rather than a biblical theology says a great deal. Your
theology is man made and then you look in the bible for verses that you think support your theology. The bible is to be your authority not your systematic.

 

[Silverhair]

There are not 'two ways'. There is One Way of Salvation.



Of course, not. That is God's Revelation of the lost sinner being, "dead". Something not in you "Study of God".



the lost sinner being, "dead".



Of course, not. That is God's Revelation to Mankind.



"those that hear the gospel and believe the gospel would be saved"
are, "The Elect", thanks to God, or ALL WOULD GO to HELL. ALL.



God's Creation REBELLED AGAINST Him, in sin,
the way you do ALL the TIME.

Alan you are just reading your theology into the bible. Stop doing that and let the bible be your authority.

By your response you really do not trust scripture. You read it through the filter of your theology, calvinism,. As long as you persist in that you will never understand the bible and the love of God for His creation.

 

[Alan Gross]

The fact that you have to have a systematic theology rather than a biblical theology says a great deal. Your
theology is man made and then you look in the bible for verses that you think support your theology. The bible is to be your authority not your systematic.

Guess again.

John Gills Exposition of the Bible Commentary

 

[JD731]

If there is a sin for which one cannot be forgiven, then Christ did not die for their sins, because if He did, that sin would be included. Moreover, people are not condemned for any sin that they do, but because they have never believed on Christ.

Also, if faith is obedience, why is it distinguished from works in James 2? The faith in John 3:16 cannot be the faith in James 2, if faith is obedience. Why does it say faith without works is dead, if faith does not mean to simply believe?

James is a man looking on the outward appearance, where the evidence of our faith is in our manner of life. James says, YE SEE, how faith without works is dead, being alone. OTOH, God looketrh not on the outward appearance but on the heart.

There is no sin for which one cannot be forgiven up to a point. However, if one passes the time of God's open door, and the door gets closed, then he will no longer give light for salvation. There are many proofs for this and it takes place in the fullness of the time. In Matthew 12 Jesus pronounced a curse on the generation of Jewish rulers whose duty it was to recognize him and believe on him and lead the nation to faith in him. They did not and committed the unpardonable sin. Jesus said they would not be saved in this age, or the age to come.



2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Remember Noah's Ark. The door was closed before it began to rain.

The Hebrews in He 6 and 10.

One must be sure he is saved. "Behold, today is the day of salvation; now is the accepted time."

Moreover, people are not condemned for any sin that they do, but because they have never believed on Christ.

Not so. Here is the Great White Throne where the wicked will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. They are all judged out of the book of works. Their deeds. It is not what they did not do. It is what they did do.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is my understanding of the question at hand.

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan you are just reading your theology into the bible. Stop doing that and let the bible be your authority.

By your response you really do not trust scripture. You read it through the filter of your theology, calvinism,. As long as you persist in that you will never understand the bible and the love of God for His creation.

So, what is it you believe
about the lost sinner being "dead", again?