Two Thoughts

[Guido]

If there is a sin for which one cannot be forgiven, then Christ did not die for their sins, because if He did, that sin would be included. Moreover, people are not condemned for any sin that they do, but because they have never believed on Christ.

Also, if faith is obedience, why is it distinguished from works in James 2? The faith in John 3:16 cannot be the faith in James 2, if faith is obedience. Why does it say faith without works is dead, if faith does not mean to simply believe?

 

[KenH]

people are not condemned for any sin that they do

Yes, they are. Do not fall for that false teaching of those who teach that Christ paid the sin debt of people who will not be saved.

Romans 7:11-24 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Guido]

Are not the lost condemned for not believing, who are supposedly not able to believe because God, supposedly, rejected them?

 

[DaveXR650]

If there is a sin for which one cannot be forgiven, then Christ did not die for their sins, because if He did, that sin would be included.

That sentence, especially the last phrase, is the classic argument for a limited atonement. If a sin has been atoned for it has been forgiven. The most reasonable explanation I've heard for the sin which cannot be forgiven though is that it involves a state of mind that would never seek forgiveness. So for a Calvinist it would describe a person who was not elect, not influenced by the Holy Spirit, and judicially hardened in their sinful path that they have chosen - in spite of being given much light and in spite of a lot of patience on God's part. For a non Calvinist, it would involve a person who sinned in a way that so offends the Holy Spirit that now the Spirit no longer convicts and so they never will repent and are forever lost, even though they still live in their physical body. In both cases the issue is not one of someone repenting and coming to Christ and then being rejected because they have committed the unforgivable sin. Rather, it is that they are now in a state where there will be no repentance. I have heard Baptist preachers say if you are really worried that you have committed this sin then you have not yet done so. I always thought that was kind of flippant until I was reading the Puritan John Owen and he said the same thing. I think I can find the reference if you need it.

 

[Alan Gross]

for a Calvinist it would describe a person who was not elect, not influenced by the Holy Spirit, and judicially hardened in their sinful path that they have chosen - in spite of being given much light and in spite of a lot of patience on God's part.

right on.

 

[Guido]

That sentence, especially the last phrase, is the classic argument for a limited atonement. If a sin has been atoned for it has been forgiven. The most reasonable explanation I've heard for the sin which cannot be forgiven though is that it involves a state of mind that would never seek forgiveness. So for a Calvinist it would describe a person who was not elect, not influenced by the Holy Spirit, and judicially hardened in their sinful path that they have chosen - in spite of being given much light and in spite of a lot of patience on God's part. For a non Calvinist, it would involve a person who sinned in a way that so offends the Holy Spirit that now the Spirit no longer convicts and so they never will repent and are forever lost, even though they still live in their physical body. In both cases the issue is not one of someone repenting and coming to Christ and then being rejected because they have committed the unforgivable sin. Rather, it is that they are now in a state where there will be no repentance. I have heard Baptist preachers say if you are really worried that you have committed this sin then you have not yet done so. I always thought that was kind of flippant until I was reading the Puritan John Owen and he said the same thing. I think I can find the reference if you need it.

Are you saying that God pretends to draw people?

 

[canadyjd]

Are you saying that God pretends to draw people?

Are you saying God doesn’t know exactly how much “drawing” is necessary for each person to come to saving faith in Jesus?

If God knows everything, and He does, then God knows exactly how much influence Holy Spirit must exercise in a person’s life to bring them to faith.

And, if you say God uses the same amount of influence on everyone, you are saying God choses to pass over all those He already knows will not respond to that amount of influence.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Are not the lost condemned for not believing, who are supposedly not able to believe because God, supposedly, rejected them?

They don’t believe because they already rejected God, not because God already rejected them.

That God chooses some to be saved, and accomplished that work Himself, is a testimony to His mercy

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

a person who was not elect, not influenced by the Holy Spirit, and judicially hardened in their sinful path that they have chosen -

That shows, "the sinner's responsibility".

Are you saying that God pretends to draw people?

Then, you are saying that you believe,
"God's Offer is not GENUINE", or something?

When God is said to have "Given":

in spite of being given much light and in spite of a lot of patience on God's part.

,

as when, "God rains on the Just and the Unjust?"

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
because he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:45

 

[Guido]

They don’t believe because they already rejected God, not because God already rejected them.

That God chooses some to be saved, and accomplished that work Himself, is a testimony to His mercy

peace to you

God did not accept them, not drawing them, according to your view. Therefore, according to your view, He rejected them.

 

[Guido]

That shows, "the sinner's responsibility".



Then, you are saying that you believe,
"God's Offer is not GENUINE", or something?

When God is said to have "Given":

,

as when, "God rains on the Just and the Unjust?"

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
because he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:45

If man has no capacity to receive the gift of eternal life, then any offer of that gift is not genuine.

 

[DaveXR650]

Are you saying that God pretends to draw people?

As the posts above point out, if you just constantly look at everything as a way to say "gotcha", you're gonna miss learning things that might be of benefit. Remember, almost all Arminians teach that for someone to come to Christ the Holy Spirit must be involved. So your question applies just as much to an Arminian or a free will Baptist. If God has to "help" then why didn't He help enough for the result to be accomplished. Calvinists just say He does and build their theological system on that monergistic starting point. I'm not a strong Calvinist and it doesn't bother me if you don't like the theological system but I just can't help but think that a lot of the time, a non Calvinist is not so much concerned as much about the theology as they are about reserving just a little bit of something of their own virtue in coming to Christ. I would recommend not doing that.

 

[Alan Gross]

If man has no capacity to receive the gift of eternal life, then any offer of that gift is not genuine.

Book 2—Chapter 2

OF THE SPECIAL DECREES OF GOD, RELATING TO RATIONAL CREATURES, ANGELS, AND MEN;

AND PARTICULARLY OF ELECTION.

1.2.0: The special decrees of God respecting rational creatures,
commonly go under the name of "Predestination";

though this sometimes is taken in a large sense,
to express everything that God has predetermined;

and so it takes in all that has been observed in the preceding chapter;

which some call eternal providence, of which,
temporary providence is the execution;

for with God there is not only a provision of things future,
but a provision for the certain bringing them to pass;

and the counsel and will of God is the source and spring of all things,
and the rule and measure according to which he works, (Eph. 1:11)

"In Him we were also chosen,
having been Predestined
according to the Plan of Him
Who Works out everything
in conformity with the Purpose of His Will,"

but Predestination is usually considered as consisting of two parts,
and including the two branches of Election and Reprobation,

both with respect to angels and men;
for each of these have place in both.

Angels; some of them are called "elect" angels, (1 Tim. 5:21)

others are said to be "reserved in chains",
in the chains of God's Purposes and Providence,

"unto the judgment" of the great day (2 Peter 2:4).

Men; some of them are vessels of mercy,
afore prepared for glory;

others vessels of wrath,
fitted for destruction;

some are the election, or the elect persons,
that obtain righteousness, life, and salvation;

and others are the rest that are left in,
and given up to blindness (Rom. 9:22, 23, 11:7).

Though sometimes predestination
only respects that branch of it called election,

and the predestinated signify only the elect;

for who else are called, justified, and glorified,
enjoy adoption and the heavenly inheritance?

not, surely, the non-elect (Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5,11).

adapted from and see much more, here:
WordPress.com

 

[Silverhair]

If man has no capacity to receive the gift of eternal life, then any offer of that gift is not genuine.

And therein lays the problem with calvinism. They have God make an insincere offer of salvation to all as by their own words He has only picked a limited number for salvation and the rest are condemned before they are even born.

In calvinism a man has no capacity to receive the gospel because God has not given Him that capacity. But the bible is clear that man can receive it and is held responsible for rejecting the gospel message. The sin that man can not be forgiven for is the sin of unbelief, if one rejects God then they have rejected the only means of salvation.

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[Alan Gross]

God has to "help" then why didn't He help enough

Any 'help' from that perspective of the flesh,
and any "light", or "influence",
only leads them to be CONDEMNED
to The Glory of God's RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT.

Just as in Hebrews 6:4,5;

These lost souls were, Biblically, said to have, "enlightened",
to the EXISTENCE of GOD, and therefore, "MORE GUILT",
for not Coming to Him that they might have Life.

"For it is impossible for

1.) those who were once enlightened,

2.) and have tasted of the heavenly gift,

3.) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

4.) 5 And have tasted the good word of God,

6.) and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

I believe that 1-6), in red above are All Speaking of Lost souls.

...

Same with Matthew 13:

10 "And the disciples came, and said unto him,
Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them,
Because it is given unto you
to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given,
and he shall have more abundance:

but whosoever hath not,
from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables:
because they seeing see not;

and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand?

14 And in them has fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias,
which saith,

By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

...

And in Matthew 23:13; "But woe unto you, scribes
and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

for ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Not 'permitting them' "TO GO IN":
Under the Influence of The DISCIPLES
and THE GOSPEL they preached,
here called, "the kingdom of heaven"*.

again, "TO GO IN" UNDER
the Influence of "the kingdom of heaven"*
UNDER the Influence of The DISCIPLES
and THE GOSPEL they preached,

 

[Silverhair]

Are you saying that God pretends to draw people?

God draws all people just as Jesus said John 12:32. But God also uses creation and the conviction of the Holy Spirit and of course the gospel message. God wants all to come to repentance and trust in His son but He will not force anyone to do so.

There are basically two views of how God brings one to salvation, either God has determined all that will be saved and only they will be saved or He has provided the information so that man can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

 

[Alan Gross]

And therein lays the problem with calvinism.

This is NOT a problem with Calvinism,
it is a Misconception of The Doctrines of Grace.

They have God make an insincere offer of salvation to all

The OFFER STANDS.

By Keeping The Eternal Moral Law of the Universe,
from CONCEPTION,

and you are In Like Flynn, to your New Home in Heaven.

as by their own words He has only picked a limited number for salvation

True. And if He Had NOT?

and the rest are condemned before they are even born.

John 3:19; "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:18; "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In calvinism a man has no capacity to receive the gospel because God has not given Him that capacity.

Exactly.

But the bible is clear that man can receive it

My Bible says they are, "dead". What does your Bible say?

Something like

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

? As if that is talking about, "The Way of Salvation",
WITHOUT CONVICTION of BEING CONDEMNED,
or REPENTANCE from PERSONAL SIN, to BE REGENERATED.

and is held responsible for rejecting the gospel message.

Yes, they are.

The sin that man can not be forgiven for is the sin of unbelief, if one rejects God then they have rejected the only means of salvation.

yeah.

 

[Alan Gross]

God draws all people just as Jesus said John 12:32.

That verse is talking about, "all types", "all kinds",
"all shapes and sizes",

The GENTILES included and not just,
"God's CHOSEN PEOPLE" the Jews.

But God also uses creation and the conviction of the Holy Spirit

Both TO CONDEMN.

and of course the gospel message

TO CONDEMN the lose for Not Responding, SPIRITUALLY
(which they can't. It's NOT IN THEM. )

God Has Not Lost HIS AUTHORITY
to COMMAND ABSOLUTE PERFECTION.

We learned that in Genesis 4, where Cain is Reponsible,
but Given No Ability
to Bring a SPIRITUALLY ACCEPTABLE "SACRIFICE"
(because HE, CAIN, Was NOT ACCEPTABLE, Spiritually.)

0.0.1 ALARM #11:
God has not lost
His Authority to Command
OBEDIENCE from MANKIND:
“If you do well, will you not be accepted?”

Genesis 4:7
...
"If you do well,
will you not be accepted?"
...

I. It will be proper to inquire,

whether a wicked, an unregenerate man,

as was Cain,

can perform 'good works'

that are:

"Acceptable to God"?
...

To which may be answered,

1. Adam had a power

to do every good work the Law Required;

which men, since the fall, have not.

...

Men indeed, in an unregenerate state,

might do many things which they do not;

such as reading the Scriptures,

attending on public worship, etc.

No doubt but the persons in the parable,

who were invited to the dinner,

could have gone to it, had they had a will,

as well as the one did to his farm,

and the other to his merchandise.

...

Men have an equal NATURAL,

SIN-CURSED 'power',

when they have a 'heart',

a 'will', an 'inclination',

to go to a place of Divine Worship,

as to a tavern, or bar;

...

But it is easy to observe,

that persons oftentimes

have it in the power of their hands,

when they do not have it

in the power of their hearts,

to do a 'good' work;

as a rich man to give alms to the poor.

...

Unregenerate men

are capable of performing works,

which are in a natural and civil,

though not in a Spiritual sense, 'good'.

...

They may do those things,

which externally, in appearance,

and as to the matter and substance of them,

may be 'good';

such as hearing, reading, praying,

giving alms to the poor, etc.,

when the circumstances

requisite to good works are left out;

...

because whatsoever is done as a good work,

must be done in Obedience to the Will

because whatever is done as a good work,

must be done in Obedience to the Will of God;

from a SPIRITUAL ABILITY.



0.0.2 ALARM #12:
“My Spirit
Will Not Always Strive with man”,
however, This Special ‘Day of Grace’
God’s Elect are now in,
Will Change into The Everlasting Day of Glory.

0.0.3a ALARM #13:
“The Lord is not Slack concerning His Promise,
…but is Long Suffering to US-WARD,
not Willing that any” of US-WARD “should Perish”

God wants all to come to repentance and trust in His son

That verse is talking about, "all types", "all kinds",
"all shapes and sizes",

The GENTILES included and not just,
"God's CHOSEN PEOPLE" the Jews.

I hope you know that if there was a scripture, like:

God wants all to come to repentance and trust in His son

then, IT HAS a WORD in it, CALLED, "us-ward".

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ...;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,

"2 Peter 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness;

but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance."

not willing that any of "USWARD" = talking to The SAVED, should perish,

but He will not force anyone to do so.

God Has To OPEN the HEART
and GIVE QUICKENING SPIRITUAL POWER.

Then, "Thy people shall be Willing in the day of Thy Power,
in the beauties of Holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth." Psalm 110:3,

There are basically two views of how God brings one to salvation, either God has determined all that will be saved and only they will be saved or He has provided the information so that man can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

If we took the Model of Thinking that:

Both of these "could be" wrong and/ or

One is True and the other FALSE.

So, the following Can't be said to be right:

There are basically two views of how God brings one to salvation.

 

[Alan Gross]

If man has no capacity to receive the gift of eternal life, then any offer of that gift is not genuine.

If I may say so, THERE IS NO "OFFER".

God's COMMAND is to REPENT.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,

when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19.

 

[Guido]

In the Bible, eternal life is called not only the gift but also free gift. If it is costly, as taught by Lordship Salvation, then the Bible is not the Word of God. If it is free, then it costs nothing. If it costs nothing, good works are not necessary to obtain it.

If belief happens before forgiveness, and regeneration proceeds belief, then at what point is the believer justified?