Two Thoughts

[Guido]

Are you saying God doesn’t know exactly how much “drawing” is necessary for each person to come to saving faith in Jesus?

If God knows everything, and He does, then God knows exactly how much influence Holy Spirit must exercise in a person’s life to bring them to faith.

And, if you say God uses the same amount of influence on everyone, you are saying God choses to pass over all those He already knows will not respond to that amount of influence.

peace to you

Do you think God cares more about His glory than about people's souls?

Not accepting someone is the same as rejecting them. These things are synonymous.

 

[Guido]

If the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, how can they be illuminated at all?

 

[Alan Gross]

In the Bible, eternal life is called not only the gift but also free gift. If it is costly, as taught by Lordship Salvation, then the Bible is not the Word of God. If it is free, then it costs nothing. If it costs nothing, good works are not necessary to obtain it.

If belief happens before forgiveness, and regeneration proceeds belief, then at what point is the believer justified?

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.

Then, in THE EFFECTUAL CALL,
the Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,
The Power of God unto SALVATION,

and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.

THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.

...

The ORDER of, "How God Saves souls", is here:


The Triune Godhead Elected.

"whom He did Predestinate" Romans 8:30

The Triune Godhead Effectually Calls

"them He Calls..." Romans 8:28, 30.

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.

Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Ephesians 1:13a "In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:


The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,
The Power of God unto SALVATION,

Ephesians 2:1
"And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Acts 20:21
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 1:16
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation
to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.

30 "Then I was by Him, as One brought up with Him:
and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him"

THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13b "...in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.

Romans 8:30c "whom He called, them He also Justified:"

GLORIFICATION is in the Future in man's view.

Romans 8:30c "and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."

 

[Alan Gross]

If the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, how can they be illuminated at all?

This, by saying:

the things

"the things" is referring to, "BIG THINGS", as in, "SPIRITUAL".

Your Bible Given criteria for, "how can they be illuminated at all?",
would be, "in a Spiritually Born-In", DIVINE NATURE.

2 Peter 1:3-4
King James Version

3 According as His Divine Power
hath given unto us
all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

through the knowledge of Him
that hath called us to Glory and Virtue:

4 Whereby are Given unto us
exceeding great and precious promises:

that by these
ye might be Partakers of the Divine Nature,

having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."


...

To that extent, they are not, "illuminated".

Nothing SPIRITUALLY IN-BORN
that by these
"ye might be Partakers of the Divine Nature."

 

[Guido]

This, by saying:


"the things" is referring to, "BIG THINGS", as in, "SPIRITUAL".

Your Bible Given criteria for, "how can they be illuminated at all?",
would, "in a Spiritually Born In, DIVINE NATURE.

2 Peter 1:3-4
King James Version

3 According as His Divine Power
hath given unto us
all things that pertain unto life and godliness,

through the knowledge of Him
that hath called us to Glory and Virtue:

4 Whereby are Given unto us
exceeding great and precious promises:

that by these
ye might be Partakers of the Divine Nature,

having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."


...

To that extent, they are not, "illuminated".

Nothing SPIRITUALLY IN-BORN
that by these
"ye might be Partakers of the Divine Nature."

So what are they in danger of falling away from?

 

[Alan Gross]

So what are they in danger of falling away from?

They stand on the 'beech', of their Life,
and throw 'the rock' of their ABILITY toward Europe

and.......fall short.

Next question.

 

[Alan Gross]

The OFFER STANDS.

By Keeping The Eternal Moral Law of the Universe,
from CONCEPTION,

and you are In Like Flynn, to your New Home in Heaven.

 

[Alan Gross]

In the Bible, eternal life is called not only the gift but also free gift. If it is costly, as taught by Lordship Salvation, then the Bible is not the Word of God. If it is free, then it costs nothing. If it costs nothing, good works are not necessary to obtain it.

People also ask

free gift bible - Google Search

What does the Bible say about the free gift?


"The free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23;

"By grace you have been saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Ephesians 2:8;

"Let the one who wishes
take the water of life without cost." Revelations 22:17.

 

[DaveXR650]

In calvinism a man has no capacity to receive the gospel because God has not given Him that capacity. But the bible is clear that man can receive it and is held responsible for rejecting the gospel message. The sin that man can not be forgiven for is the sin of unbelief, if one rejects God then they have rejected the only means of salvation.

In the unforgivable sin there seems to be a more willful denial and a more full knowledge of who God is and the need for repentance. It is more than someone who just doesn't think it's true in other words.

"Thus there are many in the present day who have the greatest abhorrence to the doctrine of the Gospel, and yet, if they knew it to be the doctrine of the Gospel, would be prepared to venerate it with their whole heart. But those who are convinced in conscience that what they repudiate and impugn is the word of God, and yet cease not to impugn it, are said to blaspheme against the Spirit, insomuch as they struggle against the illumination which is the work of the Spirit. ..... The spirit of blasphemy is therefore, when a man audaciously and of set purpose, rushes forth to insult his divine name."

Now I don't know why every simple question falls back into a Calvinism-Arminianism debate. As a Calvinist, you do not have to give up all belief in real time meaningful interaction with God where your decisions make a difference. The above quote is from John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 3, Section 22.

 

[Silverhair]

This is NOT a problem with Calvinism,
it is a Misconception of The Doctrines of Grace.



The OFFER STANDS.

By Keeping The Eternal Moral Law of the Universe,
from CONCEPTION,

and you are In Like Flynn, to your New Home in Heaven.



True. And if He Had NOT?



John 3:19; "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:18; "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.




Exactly.



My Bible says they are, "dead". What does your Bible say?

Something like



? As if that is talking about, "The Way of Salvation",
WITHOUT CONVICTION of BEING CONDEMNED,
or REPENTANCE from PERSONAL SIN, to BE REGENERATED.



Yes, they are.




yeah.

Alan you think the DoG are good and that is your choice or rather you have been determined to think that way but I do not look at them the same way that you do. They do not comport with the character of God. What you call the DoG I would be more inclined to call the doctrines of disgrace. They take the love of God and turn it on it's head. But I find much of calvinism is very elitist in the way they handle scripture and in regard to who and how one is saved.

 

[Silverhair]

That verse is talking about, "all types", "all kinds",
"all shapes and sizes",

The GENTILES included and not just,
"God's CHOSEN PEOPLE" the Jews.



Both TO CONDEMN.



TO CONDEMN the lose for Not Responding, SPIRITUALLY
(which they can't. It's NOT IN THEM. )

God Has Not Lost HIS AUTHORITY
to COMMAND ABSOLUTE PERFECTION.

We learned that in Genesis 4, where Cain is Reponsible,
but Given No Ability
to Bring a SPIRITUALLY ACCEPTABLE "SACRIFICE"
(because HE, CAIN, Was NOT ACCEPTABLE, Spiritually.)

0.0.1 ALARM #11:
God has not lost
His Authority to Command
OBEDIENCE from MANKIND:
“If you do well, will you not be accepted?”

Genesis 4:7
...
"If you do well,
will you not be accepted?"
...

I. It will be proper to inquire,

whether a wicked, an unregenerate man,

as was Cain,

can perform 'good works'

that are:

"Acceptable to God"?
...

To which may be answered,

1. Adam had a power

to do every good work the Law Required;

which men, since the fall, have not.

...

Men indeed, in an unregenerate state,

might do many things which they do not;

such as reading the Scriptures,

attending on public worship, etc.

No doubt but the persons in the parable,

who were invited to the dinner,

could have gone to it, had they had a will,

as well as the one did to his farm,

and the other to his merchandise.

...

Men have an equal NATURAL,

SIN-CURSED 'power',

when they have a 'heart',

a 'will', an 'inclination',

to go to a place of Divine Worship,

as to a tavern, or bar;

...

But it is easy to observe,

that persons oftentimes

have it in the power of their hands,

when they do not have it

in the power of their hearts,

to do a 'good' work;

as a rich man to give alms to the poor.

...

Unregenerate men

are capable of performing works,

which are in a natural and civil,

though not in a Spiritual sense, 'good'.

...

They may do those things,

which externally, in appearance,

and as to the matter and substance of them,

may be 'good';

such as hearing, reading, praying,

giving alms to the poor, etc.,

when the circumstances

requisite to good works are left out;

...

because whatsoever is done as a good work,

must be done in Obedience to the Will

because whatever is done as a good work,

must be done in Obedience to the Will of God;

from a SPIRITUAL ABILITY.



0.0.2 ALARM #12:
“My Spirit
Will Not Always Strive with man”,
however, This Special ‘Day of Grace’
God’s Elect are now in,
Will Change into The Everlasting Day of Glory.

0.0.3a ALARM #13:
“The Lord is not Slack concerning His Promise,
…but is Long Suffering to US-WARD,
not Willing that any” of US-WARD “should Perish”




That verse is talking about, "all types", "all kinds",
"all shapes and sizes",

The GENTILES included and not just,
"God's CHOSEN PEOPLE" the Jews.

I hope you know that if there was a scripture, like:



then, IT HAS a WORD in it, CALLED, "us-ward".

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, ...;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,

"2 Peter 3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
as some men count slackness;

but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance."

not willing that any of "USWARD" = talking to The SAVED, should perish,



God Has To OPEN the HEART
and GIVE QUICKENING SPIRITUAL POWER.

Then, "Thy people shall be Willing in the day of Thy Power,
in the beauties of Holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth." Psalm 110:3,



If we took the Model of Thinking that:

Both of these "could be" wrong and/ or

One is True and the other FALSE.

So, the following Can't be said to be right:

As I have said before, you read scripture through the lens of your calvinism. It seems you have a preconceived idea and then you go looking for a verse that you think will support your view. That type of proof texting can be used to prove any view one wants as we see in all the cults out there JW's Mormons etc.

 

[Alan Gross]

As I have said before, you read scripture through the lens of your calvinism. It seems you have a preconceived idea and then you go looking for a verse that you think will support your view. That type of proof texting can be used to prove any view one wants as we see in all the cults out there JW's Mormons etc.

So, you turn that all around,
where it will do some good.

 

[Alan Gross]

Smile, Silverhead, God does not Love Essau.

 

[Van]

If there is a sin for which one cannot be forgiven, then Christ did not die for their sins, because if He did, that sin would be included. Moreover, people are not condemned for any sin that they do, but because they have never believed on Christ.

Also, if faith is obedience, why is it distinguished from works in James 2? The faith in John 3:16 cannot be the faith in James 2, if faith is obedience. Why does it say faith without works is dead, if faith does not mean to simply believe?

I think you use the phrase "Christ did not die for their sins" to mean Christ did not die as payment for all their sins. On the other hand if the phrase means Christ died to become the means of salvation for all humanity, then the phrase is valid in light of a sin that precludes salvation.

Secondly, what if the unforgivable sin is to reject Christ?

Finally think of "live" faith as "faithful faith" i.e. a belief that is not superficial, but deeply rooted in commitment. For example a person says, " i trust in Christ" but never actually trusts Christ with all that they possess?

 

[Silverhair]

If I may say so, THERE IS NO "OFFER".

God's COMMAND is to REPENT.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,

when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19.

Alan then if it is a command as you say and since God's commands can not be resisted then why is everyone not saved? Are you now putting forward a universalist view?

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is another command of God. Are we to take this as you say? Or are we to see this is the light of the message of God that all those that desire to come to Him may?

 

[Silverhair]

In the unforgivable sin there seems to be a more willful denial and a more full knowledge of who God is and the need for repentance. It is more than someone who just doesn't think it's true in other words.

"Thus there are many in the present day who have the greatest abhorrence to the doctrine of the Gospel, and yet, if they knew it to be the doctrine of the Gospel, would be prepared to venerate it with their whole heart. But those who are convinced in conscience that what they repudiate and impugn is the word of God, and yet cease not to impugn it, are said to blaspheme against the Spirit, insomuch as they struggle against the illumination which is the work of the Spirit. ..... The spirit of blasphemy is therefore, when a man audaciously and of set purpose, rushes forth to insult his divine name."

Now I don't know why every simple question falls back into a Calvinism-Arminianism debate. As a Calvinist, you do not have to give up all belief in real time meaningful interaction with God where your decisions make a difference. The above quote is from John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 3, Section 22.

Dave it is not all questions falling back into that debate. When a theological; view distorts what the bible teaches that that needs to be pointed out. Would you not agree? Even your Calvin quote shows that man has the ability to accept or reject the gospel message via their own free will.

 

[Silverhair]

Smile, Silverhead, God does not Love Essau.

Misreading scripture again Alan.

 

[KenH]

Are not the lost condemned for not believing, who are supposedly not able to believe because God, supposedly, rejected them?

People are condemned because they sin. The only way to be able to stand before a perfectly holy God is to be perfectly holy. The only way for a sinner - by nature, by practice, and by choice - to stand perfectly holy before God is to have a perfect righteousness in which God can find no flaw - and that is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the sinner's account, the person's sins also having been imputed to Christ and Christ having paid the debt for them.

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan then if it is a command as you say and since God's commands can not be resisted then why is everyone not saved? Are you now putting forward a universalist view?

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This is another command of God. Are we to take this as you say? Or are we to see this is the light of the message of God that all those that desire to come to Him may?

Alan then if it is a command as you say and since God's commands can not be resisted then why is everyone not saved?

The General Call to all of Mankind is never answered and only leaves the lost sinner guilty.

This:

"Or are we to see this is the light of the message of God that all those that desire to come to Him may?"

is right, because God Gives the Desire, Spiritually, that they don't have otherwise.

That Effectual Call is never resisted.

 

[Alan Gross]

Misreading scripture again Alan.

Essau, Haman, and Cain
have been in Hell a long time.