Types of Calvinists

[Blammo]

So then you would say it is linked to the word "predestinate" and should be looked at as one subject?

Sorry...I need to go to bed.


Talk with ya tomorrow.

Let's see....

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yep, just as I have said from the beginning. I think you are missing the point. The problem I have is with you changing the meaning of predestinate to fit your doctrine. Who was predestinated? Whom he did foreknow, right? You also changed the meaning of "foreknow".

 

[Brother Bob]

Acts: 16
"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

So, those who believe are the ones He foreknows. Just can't get away from faith can we.

Looks like anyone could see that "pre-chosen" completely eliminates "faith".

 

[Jarthur001]

Let's see....

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yep, just as I have said from the beginning. I think you are missing the point. The problem I have is with you changing the meaning of predestinate to fit your doctrine. Who was predestinated? Whom he did foreknow, right? You also changed the meaning of "foreknow".

If the subject is contained within this line… "predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son".....And I would agree that it is….then there are only 2 things to be determined.

“To be conformed to the image of His Son” describes the action of the verb predestinate/ proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}.

There is no argument between us on the action. This is for those that are saved. There would be no need to go into this any more being that we both agree. You your self have said....

It's a process that begins when we are saved. I don't think you believe you are the image of Christ, do you? You are like him, in that you are now a son of God, (by adoption), you now have some of his characteristics, though not perfect, but, you are getting more like him daily.

You cannot say I twisted your meanings, because I deliberately talked around in circles until you said it plain as day. The action we can agree on.

Now 2 more words to look at and then last big item that is always over looked by freewillers and we are done.

Now if history repeats itself, we are coming close to the time when many will want to change the subject. Please…. I ask you…lets keep to the context of the passage.

1st..what is the meaning of the verb proorizo #4309 ?

It is found 6 times in the NT. Below you will find each time it is used.

Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before 4309 to be done.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate 4309 [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, 4309 them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified .

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden 613 [wisdom], which God ordained 4309 before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated 4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated 4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What does the verb mean each time it is used? Not the action…but the verb itself. What does it proorizo (#4309) mean?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Acts: 16
"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

So, those who believe are the ones He foreknows. Just can't get away from faith can we.

Looks like anyone could see that "pre-chosen" completely eliminates "faith".

You use this word "pre-choosen" a lot Bob. Where do you find this in the Bible? Who are these guys anyway? Or is this just a madeup word by you?

Acts 16....there you go again....

For the 100th time, Acts 16 is talking about faith, and not election. You keep wanting to twist the 2 into one. They have meanings of their own. We are elected into salvation, and our faith in Christ saves us.

I hope you take the time to read this short post, so you will find no need to twist these 2 words together again.


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

You make no sense at all James. You say you are elected into Salvation so you are saved once and then you get faith in Christ and get saved again. I won't make any futher comment but sure am thinking plenty.

For the 100th time, Acts 16 is talking about faith, and not election. You keep wanting to twist the 2 into one. They have meanings of their own. We are elected into salvation, and our faith in Christ saves us.

So you get saved twice and pre-chosen came from the Calvinist. I never knew the word until I came on BB so if you want to blame someone blame your friends.

And 100 times. Show me where 100 times are or is this a false statement?

 

[Blammo]

If the subject is contained within this line… "predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son".....And I would agree that it is….then there are only 2 things to be determined.

“To be conformed to the image of His Son” describes the action of the verb predestinate/ proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}.

There is no argument between us on the action. This is for those that are saved. There would be no need to go into this any more being that we both agree. You your self have said....


You cannot say I twisted your meanings, because I deliberately talked around in circles until you said it plain as day. The action we can agree on.

Now 2 more words to look at and then last big item that is always over looked by freewillers and we are done.

Now if history repeats itself, we are coming close to the time when many will want to change the subject. Please…. I ask you…lets keep to the context of the passage.

1st..what is the meaning of the verb proorizo #4309 ?

It is found 6 times in the NT. Below you will find each time it is used.



What does the verb mean each time it is used? Not the action…but the verb itself. What does it proorizo (#4309) mean?


In Christ...James

It means "planned out ahead of time". Never disagreed with that either.
I understand, God planned ahead of time, for those He foreknew would believe gospel, to be conformed to the image of his Son.

 

[Brother Bob]

If He is a timeless God then man is the only one who has to wait until the appointed time. God sees always who believes and who does not so then He knows who to call, predestinate, justify and glorify. God sees all. He is an all seeing God, got it?

 

[Jarthur001]

It means "planned out ahead of time". Never disagreed with that either.
I understand, God planned ahead of time, for those He foreknew would believe gospel, to be conformed to the image of his Son.

proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}
What do Greek scholars say?

Strongs says...
to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Vines says..
proorizo has special reference to that to which the SUBJECT of His forknowledge are predestinated..

Thayer says...
predetermine, decide beforehand
In the NT of God decreeing from eternity..

Wuest says...
Marked out beforehand.

Zodhiates says...
to limit in advance..ordain ....determine before.


Smith says..
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand


Would you agree with this...or do you fell these scholars are wrong?

If they are wrong...why are they wrong?

 

[Blammo]

proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}
What do Greek scholars say?

Strongs says...
to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.

Vines says..
proorizo has special reference to that to which the SUBJECT of His forknowledge are predestinated..

Thayer says...
predetermine, decide beforehand
In the NT of God decreeing from eternity..

Wuest says...
Marked out beforehand.

Zodhiates says...
to limit in advance..ordain ....determine before.


Smith says..
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand


Would you agree with this...or do you fell these scholars are wrong?

If they are wrong...why are they wrong?

James - You are wasting your time. You and I are in agreement as to what the word predestinate means. It is what has been predestinated that you seem to have a different opinion of. I believe we who are saved were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

 

[Jarthur001]

If He is a timeless God then man is the only one who has to wait until the appointed time. God sees always who believes and who does not so then He knows who to call, predestinate, justify and glorify. God sees all. He is an all seeing God, got it?

We have been over your twisting of Gods "knowing before" and shown this is wrong, for it makes God the receiver of information, WHICH....God does not learn from us. There is no need to go over this again with you. You have shown more then once your lack of concern for context and spiritual discernment, being bias by your doctrine.


God does not NEED to see in order to KNOW. He gains no information from us. We cannot teach Him anything!! God Knows because He is God!! God knows because it is His decree. He didn't learn who to call...He knew who to call, for it was His choice.

This is so silly it nearly makes one laugh. You think God can learn from us? Get real brother.

 

[npetreley]

James - You are wasting your time. You and I are in agreement as to what the word predestinate means. It is what has been predestinated that you seem to have a different opinion of. I believe we who are saved were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

I also believe that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son. But you can't isolate that from the rest of the references to predestination, as if this precludes the fact that we are predestined to be saved.

9 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You can stop right here and see that those He foreknew (knew intimately in advance) He predestined to be brethren to Christ, which means He predestined them to be saved. But the rest of the passage nails it beyond dispute.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Those He predestined, He called, justified, and glorified. As opposed to whom? Those He did not predestine.

I don't know how you can make it any more clear than that.

 

[Blammo]

I also believe that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's son. But you can't isolate that from the rest of the references to predestination, as if this precludes the fact that we are predestined to be saved.



You can stop right here and see that those He foreknew (knew intimately in advance) He predestined to be brethren to Christ, which means He predestined them to be saved. But the rest of the passage nails it beyond dispute.



Those He predestined, He called, justified, and glorified. As opposed to whom? Those He did not predestine.

I don't know how you can make it any more clear than that.

We agree. I think the difference is the interpretation of "whom He did foreknow". You believe it to mean, God, before the foundation of the world, arbitrarily chose certain people to save by grace. I believe it to mean, God, not wanting a bunch of robots worshipping Him, created man with a free will, and, seeing everything in eternity, saw who would believe, thus, foreknowledge.

 

[Brother Bob]

Foreknew, foreknew, foreknew.
Foreknew what?
We know he Foreknew all people so to say it means just a person is silly.
He foreknew something about that person.
He foreknew the "believer".
Now, you have your answer.
Swallow hard.

We have been over your twisting of Gods "knowing before" and shown this is wrong, for it makes God the receiver of information, WHICH....God does not learn from us. There is no need to go over this again with you. You have shown more then once your lack of concern for context and spiritual discernment, being bias by your doctrine.


God does not NEED to see in order to KNOW. He gains no information from us. We cannot teach Him anything!! God Knows because He is God!! God knows because it is His decree. He didn't learn who to call...He knew who to call, for it was His choice.

This is so silly it nearly makes one laugh. You think God can learn from us? Get real brother.

You starting to get nasty James, you must be losing!

1. God Foreknows according to time which God is timeless and even you said so. would you like me to look it up?

2. We know God Foreknows a person. He foreknows all persons so it must be He Foreknows something about that person and what could that be. He Foreknows the "believer", according to the time of man for God is timeless and sees all at once.

3. So, He Foreknows the "believer" and knows who to call, who to predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, to justify, to glorify.

4. Laugh your head off now James for you just been "snipped".

5. You say "get real" when you will not accept the "truth" for your doctrine will not stand up to the truth james. Now, why don't you accept that you are acting like a school boy who don't know the "word". lol

 

[reformedbeliever]

To say that God bases salvation on what He knew man would do is man centered theology or man centered doctrine. I believe in God centered doctrine and theology.... God based His choice of people to salvation for HIs glory .... not ours. He has the right to make from the same lump of clay............. Read Romans 9.... as if you haven't already been told.

 

[Brother Bob]

Not what he knew according to Him for he sees all. He is all in all. He foreknew according to man's time yes but not according to God Himself. There is a big difference. The thing is? He foreknew according to man's time "What"? WE know He foreknew all men so thats not it, He had to foreknow something about that man and that is He foreknew the "believer", for it is the "believer" that is saved and the very thing that separates him from the non-believer. There is no other explanation that makes any sense.

 

[Blammo]

To say that God bases salvation on what He knew man would do is man centered theology or man centered doctrine. I believe in God centered doctrine and theology.... God based His choice of people to salvation for HIs glory .... not ours. He has the right to make from the same lump of clay............. Read Romans 9.... as if you haven't already been told.

What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. (conditional)

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (conditional)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (not limited)

I know I didn't save myself. God saved me. Everything I believe is written in the word of God. That is God centered. I am a christian. (Christ centered) If you are a calvinist, wouldn't you be the one with a man centered theology? (calvin centered)

 

[Rippon]

God's foreknowledge is regarding the person -- not something about the person . That is , unless you think that anyone has some degree of merit in and of themself . Those "whom" He foreknew . Yeah , it is certainly the individual . And Scripture does not recognize God's foreknowledge of anyone but the elect . He has only set His love on them alone .

Human reasoning or philosophizing upon things theological is wrong . It is just speculation . I say go with the Word of God , not one's puny reckonings .

 

[Brother Bob]

God's foreknowledge is regarding the person -- not something about the person . That is , unless you think that anyone has some degree of merit in and of themself . Those "whom" He foreknew . Yeah , it is certainly the individual . And Scripture does not recognize God's foreknowledge of anyone but the elect . He has only set His love on them alone .

1. What is the "elect". Its the "believer", right?

2. You think God didn't foreknew all men?

3. You think God could foreknow the "elect" without knowing the "believer"?

Do you honestly believe that God don't know all men. How can He judge the unworthy if He doesn't know them. This is really out of the realm.

answer please.

 

[Blammo]

God's foreknowledge is regarding the person -- not something about the person . That is , unless you think that anyone has some degree of merit in and of themself . Those "whom" He foreknew . Yeah , it is certainly the individual . And Scripture does not recognize God's foreknowledge of anyone but the elect . He has only set His love on them alone .

Human reasoning or philosophizing upon things theological is wrong . It is just speculation . I say go with the Word of God , not one's puny reckonings .

I posted three verses from God's word. How many do you see in your post? Were you born saved? Or did you have to put your faith in the finished work of Christ at some point in your life?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jauthor001;
Quote:
Brother Bob
God does not have to go back in time. He sees all at once. He is already there, He is already here, He is already in the end for He is everlasting to everlasting, The beginning and the end. He is my all and all. Trying to compare God with the time of man is foolish. If we start saying God in time travel then He would not be a timeless God.
well bob...

This does not happen very often with us. But we are together on this one.

This is what James said was silly and He agreed with it before. lol

God is timeless when He steps out of His creation. Working with Man (creation) He does use Time, for this is how man relates...thus..the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Someday, we too will not need time. May it be today.