Under Grace or Under Law?

[webdog]

Indeed, I am not advocating that we use our freedom in Christ as an excuse to sin. However, I am advocating that a brother who stumbles into sin doesn't dissolve their salvation. For what was born in the spirit cannot be unborn by the flesh... but only by the spirit. In other words, it is what is in the heart that matters, even though our actions are important.

Agreed, and there is no mention of a believer not being able to commit certain sins anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
The above scripture says if we do such things we shall not inherit the kingdom of God, not if we are doing them when we die we still go to Heaven. If we say and teach men to do such things we are in danger of hell fire.

Indeed, I am not advocating that we use our freedom in Christ as an excuse to sin. However, I am advocating that a brother who stumbles into sin doesn't dissolve their salvation. For what was born in the spirit cannot be unborn by the flesh... but only by the spirit. In other words, it is what is in the heart that matters, even though our actions are important.

The mature christian will realize that God has guidelines on "the right way" to live, and that he or she can achieve a much deeper and more meaningful relationship with God (and other people) by following the 'right way'.

Your last statement "right way" is how a Christian walks if he has the mind of Christ. If he does the first things, where he shall not inherit the Kingdom, then he is not a Christian and probably never was.

Agreed, and there is no mention of a believer not being able to commit certain sins anywhere in the Bible.

19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Then, I take it you don't believe these are Christians and if so, then we agree. If you think they are Christians then we do not agree.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed; reread my #114 post, please

Also, the next verses are saying what I am saying if you been saved and have the mind of Christ you don't do such things as above. The text was completely in context, not out.

So many take it as those churches back then only had the "saved" inside of them but that is why Paul traveled so much was to try and clean them of such things that were among them. One bad apple will spoil the whole barrell and Paul knew that better than I.

I did read your post #114, and do not agree with all you have concluded. We have to agree to disagree, then. Whatever this verse may say, it does not say that one can evaluate whether or not someone is or was saved, based on this. If eternal life equals salvation and is a free gift, then inheritance is something else. One cannot have any such thing as a "free gift" with qualifications. That simply is a contradiction of terms.

Agreed, and there is no mention of a believer not being able to commit certain sins anywhere in the Bible.

I agree.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Free Gift is not to peole who commit such acts according to the word of God. If they do so they never had the "free gift". I didn't say they couldn't go to Heaven, the Lord said it and what He says will stand when the world is on fire.

"no mention of a believer not being able to commit sins", Then what are the following scriptures telling us, go play folly?

What about this one, maybe you all have an answer besides He didn't mean "all the time" He just said that.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

or this one:

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

or this one:

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
or this:

1Pe 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I am not challenging the "free gift", I am challenging if they ever received it.

 

[EdSutton]

Free Gift is not to peole who commit such acts according to the word of God. If they do so they never had the "free gift". I didn't say they couldn't go to Heaven, the Lord said it and what He says will stand when the world is on fire.

"no mention of a believer not being able to commit sins", Then what are the following scriptures telling us, go play folly?

What about this one, maybe you all have an answer besides He didn't mean "all the time" He just said that.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

or this one:

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

or this one:

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
or this:

1Pe 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I am not challenging the "free gift", I am challenging if they ever received it.

By your own interpretation of these verses, one sin would mean a person was never saved.

Was Peter saved twice, including again after he denied the Lord? Was Abraham saved more than once? First, when He believed God at the promise, and second at the offering of Isaac?

What about Noah? He got drunk, as I read Scripture, yet I find him in the "Hall of Fame of Faith" in Hebrews 11, along with outstanding 'testimonies' such as Rahab, the harlot; Samson; and David, the murderer, and who was at the same time, the 'man after God's own heart'?

Paul? He said he was the chief of sinners? Did that mean he was not 'yet' saved? Sorry, I don't think that interpretation is correct.

Ya' might wanna' check out some more Scriptures on some of the noteworthies, including the Biblical "Saint of saints", Lot - Hizzoner, the Mayor of Sodom, of whom the last record on this earth we have of his life, was that he fathered children in incest.

Or is Scripture wrong on all these, and none of them were ever "really and truly saved", a phrase that BTW, is never found anywhere in Scriture?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

By your own interpretation of these verses, one sin would mean a person was never saved. Was Peter saved twice, including again after he denied the Lord? Was Abraham saved more than once? First, when He believed God at the promise, and second at the offering of Isaac? What about Noah? He got drunk, as I read Scripture, yet I find him in the "Hall of Fame of Faith" in Hebrews 11, along with outstanding 'testimonies' such as Rahab, the harlot, Samson, and David, the murderer, and at the same time, the 'man after God's own heart'? Paul? He said he was the chief of sinners? Did that mean he was not 'yet' saved? Sorry, I don't think that interpretation is correct. Ya' might wanna' check out some more Scriptures on some of the noteworthies, including the Biblical "Saint of saints", Lot - Hizzoner, the Mayor of Sodom, of whom the last record on this earth we have of his life was after fathering children in incest.

Or is Scripture wrong on these?

Ed

There is a sin and there is a sin unto death.

Was the Holy Ghost within any of those you mentioned? Why do think Christ came?

1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(should I accept this as truth?)

Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (should I accept this as the truth?)

 

[DHK]

Free Gift is not to peole who commit such acts according to the word of God. If they do so they never had the "free gift". I didn't say they couldn't go to Heaven, the Lord said it and what He says will stand when the world is on fire.

"no mention of a believer not being able to commit sins", Then what are the following scriptures telling us, go play folly?

What about this one, maybe you all have an answer besides He didn't mean "all the time" He just said that.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

or this one:

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

or this one:

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
or this:

1Pe 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I am not challenging the "free gift", I am challenging if they ever received it.

On that same basis one would have to challenge you if you have the truth in you, would they not?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Brother Bob]

On that same basis one would have to challenge you if you have the truth in you, would they not?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.__________________
DHK

Feel free to do so by all means but remember there is a sin and there is a sin unto death.

Also, to make sure. The one who is questioning me, believes I could die on top of my neighbors wife, and still go to Heaven and rejoice with the angels, is that right? Or have you changed your mind?

 

[steaver]

Also, to make sure. The one who is questioning me, believes I could die on top of my neighbors wife, and still go to Heaven and rejoice with the angels, is that right?

When you die, you have only two choices, you will die either a sinner or a sinner saved by grace. Sin is sin whether it be adultery or the lack of loving God with all of your heart, mind and soul which we all fail to do each and everyday :thumbsup:

God Bless!

 

[Brother Bob]

When you die, you have only two choices, you will die either a sinner or a sinner saved by grace. Sin is sin whether it be adultery or the lack of loving God with all of your heart, mind and soul which we all fail to do each and everyday :thumbsup:

God Bless!

I don't really understand what stance you are taking. Are you also saying I could be in the act of adultery when I die and go to Heaven and rejoice with the angels?

 

[steaver]

I don't really understand what stance you are taking. Are you also saying I could be in the act of adultery when I die and go to Heaven and rejoice with the angels?

If you have been born of God.

God Bless!

 

[Brother Bob]

God help us...........

 

[Claudia_T]

If you have been born of God.

God Bless!

steve,

How in the world can you call that being "Born again"? Havent you ever done a Bible study and looked up what that actually means?

 

[Claudia_T]

1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn:5:4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn:5:18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn:4:7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

 

[steaver]

Your relationship with God as a Christian is Father and child. God does not send His children to hell for being bad. However consequences will result from sin and physical death is possible as in your example.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

1Jn:3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So you take this to mean that you, Claudia, have never sinned since your conversion to Jesus?

God Bless!

 

[EdSutton]

Was the Holy Ghost within any of those you mentioned? Why do think Christ came?

Yeah, Peter and Paul, to name two were specifically in the "church age", hence were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I'll tack on Barnabas, as well. Paul, in Galatians accused Peter of hypocrisy, and said that Barnabas was caught up in Peter's hypocrisy. The way I read Scripture, that is two Apostles who were way off track, and one of them was in a secondary fashion. Were either of them saved? Yep! As I read Scripture, anyway. As to the OT saints, where does Scripture ever say that it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be within one, hence "indwell" for one to be saved? Indwelling is something reserved to believers after the cross. What you or I have is far greater, in this regard, than anything David or Abraham ever had, or ever could have had.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. (Heb. 11:39-40 - NKJV)

But our salvation, even as theirs, is still based on, both then and now, faith, and faith apart from any works.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”[d]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[e] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. (Rom. 4:1-25 - NKJV, my emphases)

Ed

 

[steaver]

Yeah, Peter and Paul, to name two were specifically in the "church age", hence were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I'll tack on Barnabas, as well. Paul, in Galatians accused Peter of hypocraisy, and said that Barnabas was caught up in Peter's hypocrisy. The way I read Scripture, that is two Apostles who were way off track, and one of them was in a secondary fashion. Were either of them saved? Yep! As I read Scripture, anyway. As to the OT saints, where does Scripture ever say that it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be within one, hence "indwell" for one to be saved? Indwelling is something reserved to believers after the cross. What you or I have is far greater, in this regard, than anything David or Abraham ever had, or ever could have had.

Amen! :thumbsup:

And as everyone can see, Peter sinned (hypocrisy) after he was born of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yeah, Peter and Paul, to name two were specifically in the "church age", hence were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And I'll tack on Barnabas, as well. Paul, in Galatians accused Peter of hypocraisy, and said that Barnabas was caught up in Peter's hypocrisy. The way I read Scripture, that is two Apostles who were way off track, and one of them was in a secondary fashion. Were either of them saved? Yep

You equate that to:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As to the OT saints, where does Scripture ever say that it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be within one, hence "indwell" for one to be saved? Indwelling is something reserved to believers after the cross. What you or I have is far greater, in this regard, than anything David or Abraham ever had, or ever could have had.

I didn’t say to be saved, I said to have the mind of Christ and be kept by the Power of God which is the Holy Ghost that dwells in you. You condone what David did. God didn't nor did he condone what Israel did for thats why He put her away and Jesus came to restore Israel on a better way.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”[d]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[e] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. (Rom. 4:1-25 - NKJV)

Ed

According to the above there was no need for Christ to die at all for the first was plenty good enough. This is when they were worshipping Idol Gods, adultery, backsliding etc, so God put her away.

Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Why did Jesus come Ed; ?

God said you couldn't do those things and go to Heaven, you and others say they can. Which one do you think is right you or God. Oh, you say to join the church boys and then you can play the folly, get drunk, slap you mommie silly or do whatever you want. It will be alright for Jesus died for you and just because you happened to be on top of your neighbors wife when you saw the death angel coming, no need to worry, you have the blood of Christ. Yikes,

 

[EdSutton]

You equate that to:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I didn’t say to be saved, I said to have the mind of Christ and be kept by the Power of God which is the Holy Ghost that dwells in you. You condone what David did. God didn't nor did he condone what Israel did for thats why He put her away and Jesus came to restore Israel on a better way.



According to the above there was no need for Christ to die at all for the first was plenty good enough. This is when they were worshipping Idol Gods, adultery, backsliding etc, so God put her away.

Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Why did Jesus come Ed; ?

God said you couldn't do those things and go to Heaven, you and others say they can. Which one do you think is right you or God. Oh, you say to join the church boys and then you can play the folly, get drunk, slap you mommie silly or do whatever you want. It will be alright for Jesus died for you and just because you happened to be on top of your neighbors wife when you saw the death angel coming, no need to worry, you have the blood of Christ. Yikes,

Bob, there are at least three partial references to Christ dying for our sins and shedding his blood in Rom. 4., specifically verses 7, 17, 24, and 25. And that is why Jesus came as can be found in John 3, as well.

I am curious as to why the subject of Adultery seems to come up so often in your posts, and wonder if it is somehow prevalent among your church area? It seems to get a lot of mention, at least. And I agree, that it is a very grevious sin. But I don't see it as defined Biblically as "the sin unto death", and challenge any to tell me exactly what is that sin.

Is there such a sin? Absolutely!

Are we told what it is? Not that I see, although I would try and stay away from any sin, as a believer. That way, one can be assured one does not commit a "sin unto death", which, BTW, is not said to be either the way for one to lose his or her salvation, nor is it ever said that it is 'proof' that one "never had it to begin with".

Ed