Under Grace or Under Law?

[Brother Bob]

2Cr 12:21[And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Think I would run too.

 

[DHK]

You mean the Lord told them to repent but not to repent of all their sins? What we getting into now?

Isa 1:18¶Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Eze 18:30¶Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Say Amen, come on now Say Amen.

First use Scripture in context. Get out of the Old Testament, and come back to the NT.
Then get a NT definition of repentance. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. One changes their mind from their sinful lifestyle (repents from), and changes their mind toward God (repents toward God. That is, they change their mind toward their attitude toward God. They have a change of mind. Once their mind was rebellious toward God. They repent (have a change of mind); and now they are submissive to God. That is repentance.
It has nothing to do with being sorry for your sins.
It has nothing to do with listing all of your sins and repenting of each one, one by one. That is an impossibility for anyonoe to do. Honestly, do you think you can remember every sin you have ever committed from the age of about 4 or whenever your memory stretches back to, right up until now. All the lies, the disobedience to parents, the cheating, stealing (as a child), anger, rebellion, breaking the law in any way, etc.
That is repentance of all your sins. Listing all of them one by one, and then repenting of each one of them--an impossible task that the Bible never says that we should do. I challenge you to find one NT verse that says we should repent of all our sins.

 

[DHK]

2Cr 12:21[And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Think I would run too.

Not just a few certain specific sins--all your sins in order that you might be saved. Salvation was the topic when this was originally brought up.
Repent of your sins or all your sins and be saved.
Not Scriptural.

 

[Brother Bob]

Not just a few certain specific sins--all your sins in order that you might be saved. Salvation was the topic when this was originally brought up.
Repent of your sins or all your sins and be saved.
Not Scriptural.__________________
DHK

I am not sure I am understanding you DHK. Are you saying we must repent of all our sins or we don't have to?

Scripture may not say those exact words but the scripture also say to preach that which becometh sound doctrine and to repent of all your sins is certainly sound doctrine. I really think this is a mute question unless I am missing something or are you trying to make a point I am not catching?

 

[Claudia_T]

The verses are Acts 20:28 and Hebrews 6:1. Read them in context, and you will see what Scripture is saying there. What I'm driving at, is that nowhere does Scripture equate "repentance" with either "turning from sin", or "being sorry for sins", which seem to be a very widely held notions, and are drug along from the idea of "penance", as taught by the Roman Catholic church, from before the Reformation days.

The Greek words 'metanoeO' and 'metanoia', mean to "change your mind", and "a change of mind", respectively and are the verb and noun usually rendered as repent and repentance in the NT, (in all but eight instances, one of which was Judas) and are the only words rendered thus as concerns salvation.

Hopefully, this has been a bit enlightening. Gotta' run.

Ed

well I dont know, from the verses I put up it seems to me to be saying to repent from sin. Of course we cant recall all our sins but we can sure be sorry for having broken the Law of God which is what put our Saviour Jesus Christ up on the cross.. in payment for all the wrongs that we did

dont you think thats what we ought to be sorry for and repent of?

makes sense to me.

and even sorry enough to desire to stop doing that anymore.

 

[DHK]

I am not sure I am understanding you DHK. Are you saying we must repent of all our sins or we don't have to?

Scripture may not say those exact words but the scripture also say to preach that which becometh sound doctrine and to repent of all your sins is certainly sound doctrine. I really think this is a mute question unless I am missing something or are you trying to make a point I am not catching?

I am saying that if you believe we must repent of all our sins then provide Scriptural evidence. Where does it say that.
I have explained my position already. It doesn't say that. You mentioned a verse where it said to believers to repent of fornication--one sin.
But where (in the context of salvation) does it say to repent of all your sins to be saved.
It doesn't. It is not Scriptural.
Faith includes repentance. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

 

[Claudia_T]

I never thought I would see the day when I would have to be trying to convince someone they needed to repent from sin... I had no idea some people would say that sin might not even be what you have to repent from.

 

[Claudia_T]

DHK<

Maybe Im mistaking you for someone else who said this but didnt you say the Law is the Law... as in sin is sin... you cant break one law without breaking them all or something like that?


I couldnt read that from someone else... not sure... James did say if you break one commandment you have broken them all

 

[Brother Bob]

I am saying that if you believe we must repent of all our sins then provide Scriptural evidence. Where does it say that.
I have explained my position already. It doesn't say that. You mentioned a verse where it said to believers to repent of fornication--one sin.
But where (in the context of salvation) does it say to repent of all your sins to be saved.
It doesn't. It is not Scriptural.
Faith includes repentance. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.__________________
DHK

Well, I can't believe what I am hearing either. I don't know how to take you DHK;,You are very knowledgeable of scripture but yet you have some of the most different outlook on scriptures I have ever encountered. Ed tries to hop on the band wagon too on the repenting thing for I have saw him comment before.

You tell me what God wants us to do to be saved. What are you and Ed saying?

 

[DHK]

You tell me what God wants us to do to be saved. What are you and Ed saying?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It was of the grace of God that Christ provided us salvation. Salvation is all of grace.
It is by faith and faith alone by which we are saved. Salvation is by faith. We see that through dozens of Scripture throughout the NT.
What happens to repentance then? Repentance is included in faith. It is a part of faith. You can't have faith without having repentance.
Repentance is not feeling sorry for your sins.
Repentance is not listing all your sins and individually repenting of each win. Those two concepts are wrong, and not found in Scripture.

Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed towared God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.

Thus faith includes repentance. We are not like the Church of Christ and have many single "works" like faith + repentance + belief + confession + baptism = salvation. This is salvation by works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: What happens to repentance then? Repentance is included in faith. It is a part of faith. You can't have faith without having repentance.

HP: Then how can one committing adultery on their death bed claim to have faith seeing they are obviously not repentant? "Show me thy faith without thy works, but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone."

Will dead faith save anyone?

 

[DHK]

HP: Then how can one committing adultery on their death bed claim to have faith seeing they are obviously not repentant? "Show me thy faith without thy works, but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone."

Will dead faith save anyone?

I certainly get tired of people taking things out of context. The context is salvation. Obviously if one is committing adultery on their death-bed they are not looking to be saved.

 

[Claudia_T]

Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed towared God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.
.

I totally agree with that part but am still not getting the idea that faith is automatically part of repentance. maybe I will get it after awhile.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I certainly get tired of people taking things out of context. The context is salvation. Obviously if one is committing adultery on their death-bed they are not looking to be saved.

HP: There is no one taking anything out of context. You said that “You CANNOT have faith without repentance.”(IM) You also have said that one could be in the very act of committing adultery and then die, and still make it to heaven. My question to you is how is that possible seeing repentance and faith are inseparably tied according to you? Are you suggesting that they only have to be tied at salvation, and then their life can be at antipodes with their salvation experience?

One might claim to be repentant, but how is that possible if in fact one has not ceased from the sin they supposedly repented of? I would be very interested to see you define repentance for the list, repentance as you see inseparably tied to faith at salvation.

 

[Claudia_T]

unless you mean trust in God goes hands in hand with not being rebellious against God anymore

because actually it was when the serpent got Eve to distrust God is when she disobeyed Him

 

[Brother Bob]

Thus faith includes repentance. We are not like the Church of Christ and have many single "works" like faith + repentance + belief + confession + baptism = salvation. This is salvation by works.__________________
DHK

1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I agree that belief from the heart includes repentance, I also believe that faith and belief are the same here. The above scripture says if we confess our sins so must be some confession going on. Also the Scripture say what hindereth them from being baptized seeing they received the Holy Ghost the same as we? Well the Holy Ghost come in the form of baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost so now what is included in this "through faith"?

1. faith/belief/confession/repentance/Holy Ghost baptism (confession is to God)
=2. Salvation
3. water baptism to answer a good Conscious towards God and membership in visible part of church.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I should clarify myself. I fully realize that DHK gave us a whole paragraph on repentance, but I believe it to be at direct antipodes with what he really believes. Here is what he said:

Repentance is a change of mind. It is a change of mind with respect to my attitude to God. Once I was rebellious to God. Then I got saved, and my mind is now changed toward God. I am now willing to submit to God, instead of rebel against him. Repentance is a change of mind in my attitude toward God. I have changed. My attitude toward my past sinful life has changed. I don't want that life any more. "There's been a great change since I've been born again." My goal now is to be holy, as God is holy." That is a change of mind--repentance.

DHK also said that repentance and faith are inseparably tied. I see this as a clear of a contradiction as possible in light of the fact he claims that Christians are in fact NOT repentant, and all are liars, and all sin. He claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be purified from all sin in this life, so how in the world can one be repentant according to his own definition of repentance? According to him, not only is such repentance impossible, but it does not matter, for one can not only be unrepentant, but actively involved in the commission of adultery, which I am sure includes murder or any other sin, and still claim to have faith and make it into the kingdom.

 

[EdSutton]

Think I would run too.

FTR, Brother Bob, I had to run to get to church, and then to the visitation for an old saint :saint: who was the mother of our pianist, and also had been one of the cooks for nearly all the years I was in school, who had gone to be with the Lord. Our church is preparing a meal, as well, so I had to hit the local grocery, as well.

I "run" from no one, in that sense, but glad I could give you a free chuckle, anywho!

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I had to run to get to church,…

HP: In light of the slick roads in your neck of the woods, I am compelled to admonish you about... 'stretching the truth.' :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I am not sure I am understanding you DHK. Are you saying we must repent of all our sins or we don't have to?

Scripture may not say those exact words but the scripture also say to preach that which becometh sound doctrine and to repent of all your sins is certainly sound doctrine. I really think this is a mute question unless I am missing something or are you trying to make a point I am not catching?

Brother Bob,

Scripture does indeed tell us to repent of our sins. You quoted the verse earlier. Ezekiel 18:30 tells us to 'repent and turn yourselves from all your transgressions...' Since the Bible defines sin as the transgression of the Law, Ezekiel 18 does indeed tell us to repent of all our sins.

And for DHK to say get out of the Old Testament and back into the New is ludicrous. Timothy wrote that all Scripture is given (not just the New Testament, but the Old as well). Why was it given? For for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That verse in Ezekiel is not null and void just because a New Testament was written. On the contrary, that verse is strengthened because of the New Testament, for Jesus taught that we are to keep the commandments.