Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, I believe Calvinism adds man-made doctrine to scripture, and therefore the advocates of the fiction are liars.

Well that's a good start in seeking consensus, isn't it. But the fact appears to be that you don't want feedback, you want agreement.
Unfortunately, your whole theology is wrong, pretty much from start to finish, but you won't take advice, but react with hostility.

But it is not useful to direct our efforts at personal disparagement, that only indicates a lack of scriptural substance for our beliefs

I have shown my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 explicitly.

I have sought feedback in order to arrive at consensus.

If you wanted feedback, you would reply sensibly when people disagree with you. I have given you some feedback above, but you simply brush it off.

But what have I received?

1) The claim we are chosen then given faith. But the verse says we were chosen through or based upon faith in the truth.

The verse says that Paul is obligated to give thanks for the Thessalonians because God, from the beginning [not from the beginning of anything but from the beginning as in Gen. 1:1], chose [them] for salvation....' That is what He did and why Paul has to give thanks for them. The rest of the verse describes how He did it. 'through sanctification [i.e. being set apart, usually for holy purposes] by the Spirit [they didn't sanctify themselves, God did it to them and for them] and belief in the truth, to which He called [them] by our Gospel [the choosing was in eternity, but the calling was in time] for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.' They didn't believe the truth until Paul preached it to them, but they were chosen way before that. Therefore, although it was they who believed, the faith must have been the gift of God. The purpose of their believing is the glory of Christ. There is nothing 'iffy' about the glory of the Lord Jesus. It's not for us to grant or withold His glory by our decisions. 'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'

2) Another suggestion was sanctification gave us faith. I explained both sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth were indirect objects of the verb chosen.

3) Another claim was because salvation is all of the Lord, and none of the individual being saved, God could not utilize our faith, if credited as righteousness, as the basis for election. But that is nonsense for faith is according to grace not works.

It is precisely because faith is according to grace that God does not credit our faith as being righteous.

 

[JesusFan]

Well that's a good start in seeking consensus, isn't it. But the fact appears to be that you don't want feedback, you want agreement.
Unfortunately, your whole theology is wrong, pretty much from start to finish, but you won't take advice, but react with hostility.

If you wanted feedback, you would reply sensibly when people disagree with you. I have given you some feedback above, but you simply brush it off.

The verse says that Paul is obligated to give thanks for the Thessalonians because God, from the beginning [not from the beginning of anything but from the beginning as in Gen. 1:1], chose [them] for salvation....' That is what He did and why Paul has to give thanks for them. The rest of the verse describes how He did it. 'through sanctification [i.e. being set apart, usually for holy purposes] by the Spirit [they didn't sanctify themselves, God did it to them and for them] and belief in the truth, to which He called [them] by our Gospel [the choosing was in eternity, but the calling was in time] for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.' They didn't believe the truth until Paul preached it to them, but they were chosen way before that. Therefore, although it was they who believed, the faith must have been the gift of God. The purpose of their believing is the glory of Christ. There is nothing 'iffy' about the glory of the Lord Jesus. It's not for us to grant or withold His glory by our decisions. 'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'



It is precisely because faith is according to grace that God does not credit our faith as being righteous.

We have nothing to give to God when in a lost state, and we can ONLY fall upon the mercy and grace of God

 

[Brightfame52]

When the Holy Spirit says we have to believe prior to being saved why do you not agree with that?

The bible has never stated that falsehood, believing in Jesus is given as a gift of grace Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Thats not a condition but a blessing bestowed

 

[Brightfame52]

The verse says that Paul is obligated to give thanks for the Thessalonians because God, from the beginning [not from the beginning of anything but from the beginning as in Gen. 1:1], chose [them] for salvation....' That is what He did and why Paul has to give thanks for them. The rest of the verse describes how He did it. 'through sanctification [i.e. being set apart, usually for holy purposes] by the Spirit [they didn't sanctify themselves, God did it to them and for them] and belief in the truth, to which He called [them] by our Gospel [the choosing was in eternity, but the calling was in time] for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Yes the work of the Spirit here in sanctifying the elect to believe the Truth, is answer to Jesus prayer here Jn 17:17

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[Silverhair]

I read where you posted about conditions men must meet to get saved

Just what we see in scripture.

How do you miss that in scripture BF?

If you believe = will be saved by God

If you do not believe = will be condemned by God

 

[Brightfame52]

Just what we see in scripture.

Wrong that's what you see unfortunately you been deceived

 

[Van]

Well that's a good start in seeking consensus, isn't it. But the fact appears to be that you don't want feedback, you want agreement.
Unfortunately, your whole theology is wrong, pretty much from start to finish, but you won't take advice, but react with hostility.

If you wanted feedback, you would reply sensibly when people disagree with you. I have given you some feedback above, but you simply brush it off.

The verse says that Paul is obligated to give thanks for the Thessalonians because God, from the beginning [not from the beginning of anything but from the beginning as in Gen. 1:1], chose [them] for salvation....' That is what He did and why Paul has to give thanks for them. The rest of the verse describes how He did it. 'through sanctification [i.e. being set apart, usually for holy purposes] by the Spirit [they didn't sanctify themselves, God did it to them and for them] and belief in the truth, to which He called [them] by our Gospel [the choosing was in eternity, but the calling was in time] for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.' They didn't believe the truth until Paul preached it to them, but they were chosen way before that. Therefore, although it was they who believed, the faith must have been the gift of God. The purpose of their believing is the glory of Christ. There is nothing 'iffy' about the glory of the Lord Jesus. It's not for us to grant or withold His glory by our decisions. 'Known to God from eternity are all His works.'



It is precisely because faith is according to grace that God does not credit our faith as being righteous.

1) I presented why "from the beginning" must refer to the beginning of the New Covenant. You provided no feedback, you just repeated your false claim.

2) Yes, we are chosen by God (His Spirit) setting us apart within Christ's spiritual body.

3) The individual choosing did not occur in eternity, as once we were "not a people" chosen for His own possession.

4) Yes we were transferred into Christ "in time," when we were physically alive.

5) Again, you cannot rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13, we were chosen "through" faith in the truth, therefore our faith was utilized in our election. It is a lock.

6) Yes, what God declares, He makes happen. And He declared that those born anew were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, But I have explained this as when God chose His redeemer individually, He chose corporately those His redeemer might redeem. We could not have been chosen individually, or we would have always been "a people chosen for His own possession." It is a lock.

 

[Silverhair]

Wrong that's what you see unfortunately you been deceived

BF you are ignoring the word of God

Joh 3:16 ... that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, ... and believe in your heart
Act 16:31 T..., “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,
Rom 3:22 ... the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith...

You still have not provided any clear verse that supports your illogical view.

 

[David Lamb]

Just what we see in scripture.

How do you miss that in scripture BF?

If you believe = will be saved by God

If you do not believe = will be condemned by God

Yes, that is true. But Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

In the first 10 verses of Ephesians 2 Paul reminds his Christian readers how they had been granted new life. They had been dead in trespasses and sins, until God acted to grant them life.

You seem to be suggesting that those of us who believe the doctrines of grace somehow don;t think that belief in The Lord Jesus Christ is necessary. That is not so.

 

[Brightfame52]

3) The individual choosing did not occur in eternity,

It was from the beginning Gen 1:1 so it was b4 men were made, b4 they were born to do good or evil Rom 9

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) Gods election or choosing isnt based upon foreseen actions

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are ignoring the word of God

No Im not you are. Believing and Faith in Christ is given by grace

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth.

1) I presented why "from the beginning" must refer to the beginning of the New Covenant. You provided no feedback, you just repeated your false claim.

Well, here we go then. You have this idea that people are 'spiritually transferred into Christ.' You are, I suppose, thinking of Col. 1:13, but that text speaks of us being transferred into the kingdom of Christ. That we are united to Christ through faith is true, but I'm not sure why you think that no one could be chosen before faith.
What exactly are you saying about Abraham's bosom? Are you suggesting that it is some sort of special place for O.T. saints who are not allowed into heaven until Christ has died for them? That's a whole lot of doctrine to base on a few verses in one parable! In John 1:18, we read that the Son is 'in the bosom of the Father,' and in John 13:23, we read that John himself was 'leaning on Jesus' bosom.' So what can we make of it? In 1st Century banquets or suppers, the guests reclined on 'couches for three' (Latin: triclinium) in a U shape around the low table meal, so that one person's head was close to another's chest. So in John 13:23-26, John was in that favoured position with respect to our Lord and they could converse with a degree of privacy. So when we read of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, it means no more than that he was in a favoured position at Abraham's side in heaven. I do not see that there is any special area called 'Abraham's bosom.' 'And I say to you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven' (Matt. 8:11). God 'passed over' (Rom. 3:25) the sins of the patriarchs and all believing Jews on the basis of Christ's atoning death on the cross, but there is no suggestion that they had to wait in some sort of holding area until that death had occurred.
If you want me to comment further, you need to supply more detail.

 

[Van]

Well, here we go then. You have this idea that people are 'spiritually transferred into Christ.' You are, I suppose, thinking of Col. 1:13, but that text speaks of us being transferred into the kingdom of Christ. That we are united to Christ through faith is true, but I'm not sure why you think that no one could be chosen before faith.
What exactly are you saying about Abraham's bosom? Are you suggesting that it is some sort of special place for O.T. saints who are not allowed into heaven until Christ has died for them? That's a whole lot of doctrine to base on a few verses in one parable! In John 1:18, we read that the Son is 'in the bosom of the Father,' and in John 13:23, we read that John himself was 'leaning on Jesus' bosom.' So what can we make of it? In 1st Century banquets or suppers, the guests reclined on 'couches for three' (Latin: triclinium) in a U shape around the low table meal, so that one person's head was close to another's chest. So in John 13:23-26, John was in that favoured position with respect to our Lord and they could converse with a degree of privacy. So when we read of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom, it means no more than that he was in a favoured position at Abraham's side in heaven. I do not see that there is any special area called 'Abraham's bosom.' 'And I say to you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven' (Matt. 8:11). God 'passed over' (Rom. 3:25) the sins of the patriarchs and all believing Jews on the basis of Christ's atoning death on the cross, but there is no suggestion that they had to wait in some sort of holding area until that death had occurred.
If you want me to comment further, you need to supply more detail.

I did not see where you suggested the Kingdom of Christ was not entered by being transferred into Christ spiritually.

Were you not "called" [transferred] out of darkness into His marvelous light? 1 Peter 2:9

Were you not "baptized" [transferred] into Christ spiritually? Romans 6:3

Are you not "in Christ" by God's doing? 1 Corinthians 1:30

Were you not "given" [transferred] into Christ such that Christ will not cast you out? John 6:37

Anyone who claims we were not conceived into the realm of darkness, as "made sinners" and then, if chosen for salvation, transferred out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son, believes in another gospel!

Next you say you are not sure why I believe we could not be chosen before faith, when I explain why in the OP.

You seem to be asking a series of diversionary questions, all of which have be answered numerous times. For example you say "in Abraham's bosom in heaven" where you know no one entered heaven before Christ returned, John 3:13,

I do not see that you are making any effort to offer a different understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 than I offered in the OP.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, that is true. But Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

In the first 10 verses of Ephesians 2 Paul reminds his Christian readers how they had been granted new life. They had been dead in trespasses and sins, until God acted to grant them life.

You seem to be suggesting that those of us who believe the doctrines of grace somehow don;t think that belief in The Lord Jesus Christ is necessary. That is not so.

David that is what calvinist theory says. Where the calvinist's fail is that they say faith is given to them after they are saved. They say they are saved unconditionally.

The bible says we are saved because we believe not so that you will believe.

So what I said is true.

If you believe = will be saved by God

If you do not believe = will be condemned by God

The calvinist view cannot be true as they have people saved while they are still unbelievers.

 

[Silverhair]

No Im not you are. Believing and Faith in Christ is given by grace

You can keep saying that BF but the word of God shows you are wrong.

 

[Van]

It was from the beginning Gen 1:1 so it was b4 men were made, b4 they were born to do good or evil Rom 9

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) Gods election or choosing isnt based upon foreseen actions

The parade of rewritten scripture continues, from the beginning does not mean "in the beginning" or before the foundation of the world. From the beginning means since the beginning or after the beginning. And the choice of Romans 9:11 was NOT for salvation.

But this nonsense gets posted non-stop...

 

[Van]

Amen.

No one was made perfect before they were born anew with the washing of regeneration. No one not made perfect enters heaven, the abode of God who is holy. Those not made holy are separated from God. This is basic Sir. Thus to be set apart in Christ refers to the beginning of the New Covenant. God has been choosing individuals for salvation by setting them apart in Christ since the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.
Therefore once made spiritually, but not physically perfect, we were indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brightfame52]

You can keep saying that BF but the word of God shows you are wrong.

I am going to keep saying it because it's true both faith and believing in Christ are gifts of God and repentance.

 

[Brightfame52]

The parade of rewritten scripture continues, from the beginning does not mean "in the beginning" or before the foundation of the world. From the beginning means since the beginning or after the beginning. And the choice of Romans 9:11 was NOT for salvation.

But this nonsense gets posted non-stop...

Yes it is about salvation, the entire book of Romans is about the Gospel of God.

 

[Silverhair]

I am going to keep saying it because it's true both faith and believing in Christ are gifts of God and repentance.

Then back it up with clear scripture.

You do not do that because there is not scripture that supports your view.

You have to read your false theory into the text BF.

You want to elevate calvinism over the word of God.

Calvinism presents a man-made theory of salvation that denies the word of God.