Understanding God’s election

[Brightfame52]

@Dougcho

And how do they get to be regenerated?

A miracle of Spiritual resurrection by the resurrection of Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[kyredneck]

Why is God not causing all people to change their minds? Do you not see the flaw in your thinking.

What complaint have I made against the sovereignty of God?

Silverhair:
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

Ro 9:20:

New International Version
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

New Living Translation
No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

English Standard Version
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Berean Standard Bible
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”

Berean Literal Bible
But rather, O man, who are you, answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One having formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

King James Bible
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

New King James Version
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

New American Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

NASB 1995
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

NASB 1977
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Legacy Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

Amplified Bible
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”

American Standard Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore, who are you, oh son of man, that you give a rebuttal to God? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, “Why have you made me this way?”

Contemporary English Version
But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

Douay-Rheims Bible
O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?

English Revised Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, "Why did you make me like this?"

Good News Translation
But who are you, my friend, to talk back to God? A clay pot does not ask the man who made it, "Why did you make me like this?"

International Standard Version
On the contrary, who are you—mere man that you are—to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why did you make me like this?"

Literal Standard Version
No, but, O man, who are you that are answering again to God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed [it], Why did you make me thus?

Majority Standard Bible
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”

New American Bible
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, “Why have you created me so?”

NET Bible
But who indeed are you--a mere human being--to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

New Revised Standard Version
But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?”

New Heart English Bible
But who indeed are you, a human being, to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

Webster's Bible Translation
No, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Weymouth New Testament
Nay, but who are you, a mere man, that you should cavil against GOD? Shall the thing moulded say to him who moulded it, "Why have you made me thus?"

World English Bible
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”

Young's Literal Translation
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus?

 

[DaveXR650]

@kyredneck. The problem there is not that you shouldn't argue with God. The problem is whether God is telling those whom he has determined to go to Hell that they have no reason to question this. A lot of people don't think salvation and damnation is what is being discussed in that passage. And there is an overwhelming number of passages that indicate God is constantly reaching out to people and if anything, showing much longsuffering even to those who never turn to God.

We need to be careful that we don't pick and choose passages so that we end up making an outrageous statement about God's dealing with men and then turn around and act like we're speaking for God in rebuking anyone who questions whether the statement is true.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair:
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

Ro 9:20:

New International Version
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

New Living Translation
No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

English Standard Version
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Berean Standard Bible
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”

Berean Literal Bible
But rather, O man, who are you, answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One having formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

King James Bible
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

New King James Version
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

New American Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

NASB 1995
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

NASB 1977
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Legacy Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?

Amplified Bible
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Christian Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this? ”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”

American Standard Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore, who are you, oh son of man, that you give a rebuttal to God? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, “Why have you made me this way?”

Contemporary English Version
But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

Douay-Rheims Bible
O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?

English Revised Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, "Why did you make me like this?"

Good News Translation
But who are you, my friend, to talk back to God? A clay pot does not ask the man who made it, "Why did you make me like this?"

International Standard Version
On the contrary, who are you—mere man that you are—to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why did you make me like this?"

Literal Standard Version
No, but, O man, who are you that are answering again to God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed [it], Why did you make me thus?

Majority Standard Bible
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”

New American Bible
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, “Why have you created me so?”

NET Bible
But who indeed are you--a mere human being--to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

New Revised Standard Version
But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?”

New Heart English Bible
But who indeed are you, a human being, to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

Webster's Bible Translation
No, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Weymouth New Testament
Nay, but who are you, a mere man, that you should cavil against GOD? Shall the thing moulded say to him who moulded it, "Why have you made me thus?"

World English Bible
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”

Young's Literal Translation
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus?

So you can not answer questions or support you questionable theology. The only thing you and most calvinists can do is misquote the biblical text or the person you are responding to.

Truth does not seem to be high on your list KY.

And as I said before what point are you trying to make KY?

But we now know that you can copy paste. Do you want a pat on the back for that?

 

[Silverhair]

@kyredneck. The problem there is not that you shouldn't argue with God. The problem is whether God is telling those whom he has determined to go to Hell that they have no reason to question this. A lot of people don't think salvation and damnation is what is being discussed in that passage. And there is an overwhelming number of passages that indicate God is constantly reaching out to people and if anything, showing much longsuffering even to those who never turn to God.

We need to be careful that we don't pick and choose passages so that we end up making an outrageous statement about God's dealing with men and then turn around and act like we're speaking for God in rebuking anyone who questions whether the statement is true.

As you may have noticed that is KY's forte.

 

[kyredneck]

The problem there is not that you shouldn't argue with God.

But you agree, one should not argue with God, right?

The problem is whether God is telling those whom he has determined to go to Hell that they have no reason to question this.

There is no mention of hell in the context. Only 'wrath' and 'destruction'.

"...Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:..."

A lot of people don't think salvation and damnation is what is being discussed in that passage.

Love & hate, mercy & hardening, honor & dishonor, wrath & glory in Ro 9, no mention of salvation and damnation, which no doubt you mean in the eternal sense. It's almost always hell with you people with other scripture, but now, with Ro 9, the suggestion is made that it's not about the eternal sense, which leaves only the temporal sense. What temporal wrath & destruction is in the minds of "a lot of people"?

 

[kyredneck]

So you can not answer questions or support you questionable theology. The only thing you and most calvinists can do is misquote the biblical text or the person you are responding to.

Truth does not seem to be high on your list KY.

And as I said before what point are you trying to make KY?

But we now know that you can copy paste. Do you want a pat on the back for that?

Troll, begone. All you do is make these ridiculous accusations and pit scripture against scripture with no effort to harmonize.

 

[Silverhair]

Troll, begone. All you do is make these ridiculous accusations and pit scripture against scripture with no effort to harmonize.

I am still waiting for you to make a valid point. You quote out of context verses and then complain when questioned on it.

It seems you are trying to make scripture agree with your views rather than getting your views from scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

So you can not answer questions

Ask. One question at a time. The first hint of dishonesty from you, we're done.

 

[DaveXR650]

Love & hate, mercy & hardening, honor & dishonor, wrath & glory in Ro 9, no mention of salvation and damnation, which no doubt you mean in the eternal sense. It's almost always hell with you people with other scripture, but now, with Ro 9, the suggestion is made that it's not about the eternal sense, which leaves only the temporal sense. What temporal wrath & destruction is in the minds of "a lot of people"?

I'm just saying that if you read the whole chapter at once and in context with the preceding chapters it seems Paul is saying that Jews need to understand that salvation is not just about being a Jew, that God is under no obligation to save everyone who is a Jew, and as proof you can see God working sovereignly to choose Jacob instead of Esau for example. I don't really have a problem with the Calvinist idea that since we are all guilty sinners God has every right to save some and suffer others to continue on, becoming more and more evil and piling up more and more guilt because that would be within God's rights. But is that what he is really saying there? Some Calvinists seem to camp on this idea as a primary message and seem to feel some calling to show the severity of God and they make it seem like their primary mission is to downplay the idea that in fact God would rather have people be saved - all people, not just Jews.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm just saying that if you read the whole chapter at once and in context with the preceding chapters it seems Paul is saying that Jews need to understand that salvation is not just about being a Jew, that God is under no obligation to save everyone who is a Jew, and as proof you can see God working sovereignly to choose Jacob instead of Esau for example.

Romans 9:23-24 clearly reveals that Paul is not speaking only of Jews and is most definitely in context with Romans 8:28-30.

 

[DaveXR650]

Romans 9:23-24 clearly reveals that Paul is not speaking only of Jews and is most definitely in context with Romans 8:28-30.

No. The thought is that he is addressing his own people, Jews, who apparently thought that everyone who was a Jew after the flesh was saved. He is showing them that God is sovereign and is allowed to save and bless anyone he chooses to without having to answer to anyone. But the general message seems to me to be one of expanding blessing, especially if you are a gentile. I would be careful as a Calvinist, to take these passages, assign a meaning that is not universally accepted, and then out of context admonish people to not dare question God. It may be that they are not questioning God but questioning your interpretation of the passage, which right or wrong, is not a sin.

 

[kyredneck]

No. The thought is that he is addressing his own people, Jews, who apparently thought that everyone who was a Jew after the flesh was saved. He is showing them that God is sovereign and is allowed to save and bless anyone he chooses to without having to answer to anyone. But the general message seems to me to be one of expanding blessing, especially if you are a gentile. I would be careful as a Calvinist, to take these passages, assign a meaning that is not universally accepted, and then out of context admonish people to not dare question God. It may be that they are not questioning God but questioning your interpretation of the passage, which right or wrong, is not a sin.

Is this how your guy Owen interprets Romans 9?

 

[kyredneck]

@DaveXR650 :
“No. The thought is that he is addressing his own people, Jews, ”

No. He is addressing:

7 To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Ro 1

Not ‘Jews only’, but also Gentiles. Romans 9:24

 

[Silverhair]

Ask. One question at a time. The first hint of dishonesty from you, we're done.

Get over yourself KY. You are not the source of all truth.

You have your opinions and as I see it they do not comport with scripture.

But as I said what is your point? Posting out of context verses do not answer anything although you seem to think they do.

So lets see a bit of honesty from you.

 

[kyredneck]

Get over yourself KY. You are not the source of all truth.

You have your opinions and as I see it they do not comport with scripture.

But as I said what is your point? Posting out of context verses do not answer anything although you seem to think they do.

So lets see a bit of honesty from you.

Begone, troll.

 

[DaveXR650]

Is this how your guy Owen interprets Romans 9?

I don't know if I have ever read a complete exegesis of Romans 9 by Owen. I do know he was completely on board with individual election and reprobation. But you have to understand that the Puritans like Owen did not put up an either or system of logic like we tend to do now. For example, Owen also said "Wherefore, that which is now proposed unto consideration in answer hereunto, is the readiness of Christ to receive every sinner, be he who or what he will, that shall come unto him." A modern Calvinist, who gets his theology from current theologians, will tend to find a contradiction there. I mean, that statement sounds like something @Silverhair could have said, yet that was Owen. Owen also said "But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability; he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners, for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory." You won't understand Calvinism if you don't read the Puritan writings. The modern system seems to me to be a lot more emphasizing of determinism, and it so emphasized the logical steps of how this works that it begins to undermine clear teachings that are vital to Christianity.

If someone comes to Christ they will be saved. And that goes for everyone and anyone. And no one is shut out from that. The invitations of the gospel are real and actual. If you do not believe this you are something different than the Puritan Calvinists. Believing in the sovereignty of God is one thing but what I see some of the modern Calvinists do is almost weaponize Romans 9 and turn God into a threatening being who tells you that he may just decide to send you to Hell and then threatens that you had better not object. I admit that God has a perfect right to send any or all of us to Hell because of the way we are but most of scripture is really showing that God doesn't want to do that and you just need to be careful not to build a whole system that hinges on a certain interpretation of Romans chapter 9.

 

[kyredneck]

I don't know if I have ever read a complete exegesis of Romans 9 by Owen. I do know he was completely on board with individual election and reprobation. But you have to understand that the Puritans like Owen did not put up an either or system of logic like we tend to do now. For example, Owen also said "Wherefore, that which is now proposed unto consideration in answer hereunto, is the readiness of Christ to receive every sinner, be he who or what he will, that shall come unto him." A modern Calvinist, who gets his theology from current theologians, will tend to find a contradiction there. I mean, that statement sounds like something @Silverhair could have said, yet that was Owen. Owen also said "But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability; he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners, for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory." You won't understand Calvinism if you don't read the Puritan writings. The modern system seems to me to be a lot more emphasizing of determinism, and it so emphasized the logical steps of how this works that it begins to undermine clear teachings that are vital to Christianity.

If someone comes to Christ they will be saved. And that goes for everyone and anyone. And no one is shut out from that. The invitations of the gospel are real and actual. If you do not believe this you are something different than the Puritan Calvinists. Believing in the sovereignty of God is one thing but what I see some of the modern Calvinists do is almost weaponize Romans 9 and turn God into a threatening being who tells you that he may just decide to send you to Hell and then threatens that you had better not object. I admit that God has a perfect right to send any or all of us to Hell because of the way we are but most of scripture is really showing that God doesn't want to do that and you just need to be careful not to build a whole system that hinges on a certain interpretation of Romans chapter 9.

‘Commentary Dave’, like his mentor (who he doesn’t really agree with deep down), takes 10,000 words to say what could be done in 10.

 

[Silverhair]

Begone, troll.

Still do not answer questions. You are funny KY.

 

[kyredneck]

Still do not answer questions. You are funny KY.

Troll, once again:

Ask. One question at a time. The first hint of dishonesty from you, we're done.

You’re incapable to do this, to be honest in your responses.