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Understanding God's sovereignty

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Dave...

Member
Brightfame52 said:
Yes Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.
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Bright, think about what is being said here. For God to be the author of sin, He would need to be the cause of it, just as He is the Author of good. We see the two contrasted here, with there respected causes. God is not just the Author of good, He is the Author of life (Acts 3:15). If He caused sin, He would be a house divided against itself.

James:1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Brightfame52 said:
Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.
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Please see post #21
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
Bright, think about what is being said here. For God to be the author of sin, He would need to be the cause of it, just as He is the Author of good. We see the two contrasted here, with there respected causes. God is not just the Author of good, He is the Author of life (Acts 3:15). If He caused sin, He would be a house divided against itself.

James:1:13-17 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
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Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.

Dave... said:
Please see post #21
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I saw it, it has no relevance in my statement

Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.
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JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Brightfame52 said:
@JonC



it does, and your logic is flawed. Nothing and nobody exists without Gods purpose.
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I agree that nothing and nobody exists without God's purpose. But that is not your argument.

I referenced a passage in James and you basically said "hogwash" because God created everything. Another passage even tells us how sin originates (and it is not with God).

Like I said, this is an either or issue. You or God is wrong. Now, if I was a betting man . . .

Brightfame52 said:
Gods purpose is the author of sin, God isnt the doer of sin.
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God's purpose cannot author anything. God can.

But with sin Scripture tells us exactly how it is authored. It is authored by the human mind, by men allowing themselves to be carried away by their own lust. This is how sin is conceived, and from there it is acted upon (men do the sin).

There are several problems with your logic.

First, you make a nonsensical claim (that God's purpose authors sin, apparently using an abstract so as not to blaspheme and simply say that God is the first cause or author of sin).

Second, your logic is flawed because the presence of the elements (man. setting the mind on human desires, and temptations) does not sin make.

Third, you are making an assumption that God purposes for men to sin (the first major error of hyper-calvinism within orthodox Calvinism).

Fourth, you are trusting your philosophy to an extent you essentually deny Scripture.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Brightfame52 said:
@JonC



It is my argument. Gods purpose is the first and primary cause for everything that happens in His world, He created it for His Purpose in Christ Jesus.
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But it is not a cause. God works everything fir the good. For example, God's purpose is not a cause (first or primary), for sin (per Scripture). God is not a cause at all for temptation (again, per Scripture).

The issue is you are ignoring the possibility that God could have created men with the ability of being the ultimate source of their own sin.

If God did not create man then man would not have sinned. BUT we are not talking about the first cause of man but of sin. The error in your logic is with the word "cause".

Brightfame52 said:
@JonC



They are the same
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Not in the English language.

I may purpose to go to work. But my purpose does not author me going to work. Ones "purpose" cannot author anything. It is something we have, and it may determine our actions, but we are its source.

It is better, IMHO, to speak plainly and use words in such a way that follows the language in which we speak.

You mean God authors sin to achieve His purpose, not God's purpose authors sin, as the last is not a legitimate concept. And that is the hyoer-Calvinistic argument (neo-Calvinism as it was rejected when presented as the logical conclusion of Calvinism by James Arminius). Calvinism insists that God predestins everything but mot in a way that makes Him the author of sin.

I agree with you, however, that neo-Calvinism (hyper-Calvinism) a more logical than Calvinism itself. But it is even less biblical.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Brightfame52 said:
@JonC



Sure it is. Thats a unlearned comment. Everything you saying sounds like mass confusion sir.
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I do not doubt that what I posted sounds to you like confusion.
But no, you are wrong. God is not the cause of evil, sin, or temptation.

Those who made medications that some abuse are not the cause of the drug abuse.

What you need to prove is that God created man to sin (that man's purpose is ti disobey God).
If you can prove that then you nay jave a point. But as it stands you are guilty of denying Scripture that tells us the origin of sin, how sin comes about, and the origin of temptation to sin.

You simply do not grasp the sovereignty of God.
 
P

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
Brightfame52 said:
God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin. Or do you suppose God got the idea of Salvation from sin outside of Himself ?
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Greetings brother on this blessed Sunday.

Either I didn't make my point clear in my post or I don't understand your point.

Let me ask this... Is God responsible for mankind's sin? That is, is he blameworthy for it? If you say He is...well, I'm not sure that's properly considered Christian thought. If He is not, then why not?

Peace to you brother.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Paleouss said:
Greetings brother on this blessed Sunday.

Either I didn't make my point clear in my post or I don't understand your point.

Let me ask this... Is God responsible for mankind's sin? That is, is he blameworthy for it? If you say He is...well, I'm not sure that's properly considered Christian thought. If He is not, then why not?

Peace to you brother.
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God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin. Or do you suppose God got the idea of Salvation from sin outside of Himself ?
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
The term 'ordain' is what I would call an umbrella word which encompasses God's complete sovereignty over all that He providentially governs. Under the term "ordained", we have both 'predestine', and 'positively allowed' (not predestined). He ordains everything, He positively causes all that is predestined, and He positively allows (doesn't cause) all the rest. What is called 'predestined' and what is 'positively allowed' (not predestined) are both together ordained and decreed from the foundations of the world and are governed by the council of God's will. The point being, that God doesn't need to positively cause something to be sovereign over it. God ordained the day that we were born, and the day we will die. Think about that. The "Positively allowing" part, think of it like a domino effect. Knowing the effect of every cause, He doesn't need to actively cause everything. He can set boundaries, He can remove boundaries, He can be an initial cause and let the rest take it's natural course of action knowing the end result. Please don't read humanism into what I'm saying.
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I agree with most, if not all of this, Dave, and can see that we share a lot of the same understandings about who God is regarding this subject, as revealed in His word.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
God is bound, or constrained by His attributes.
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I hear or see this statement a lot, especially on forums or in videos and sermons.

However, I find that the older I get ( I'm 59 now, having been a believer for 47+ years ) and the more I study His word, the more I've come to the position that God is defined by what He has revealed about Himself in His word.
If some want to call it "His attributes", then OK. But to me, the reality of it is that we as believers should be ready, willing and able to take God for who He says that He is, and not what we think He is, or not by a defined list of "attributes".

This is why I would say that God is not constrained ( i.e. "limited" ) by His attributes...
He presents Himself to us as He is ( "I AM THAT I AM" ), and His word tells us many things about Himself and His will, as well as what He finds abhorrent and what He loves.

For example, if He says that He hates the worker of iniquity, then He hates the sinner, not just the sin.
If He says that certain things are an abomination to Him, then we can be assured that He finds them disgusting.
If He says that He is love, then He is love.

If He says that He is willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, then that is as equally true. as all the rest.
 
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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
His justice must be considered. Sometimes God will harden a mans heart, though it is not Him doing it, it is Him allowing evil to do it for Him, by removing the restraints put on that evil. Or simply allowing sin to take it's course, or simply removing any light. If you have sinned once, you are considered guilty without Jesus, and it would fall under His justice for God to do what He wills with you at this point. thankfully, He is merciful.
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This is one point, or area, in which we seem to disagree a bit.

I see that God's word says that He hardened Pharoah's heart against Him and His words...so this I take literally. As I see Romans 9 telling us, He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens;
It's that simple, whether or not I found it easy to come to grips with it right way.

For example...in reading the book of Exodus, I clearly see the Lord telling Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart;
For the specific purpose of him not letting God's people go.
I then see that the reason that He did so, was so that God would bring the children of Israel out of Egypt by a mighty hand, rendering His just judgements upon the Egyptians in the form of plagues and other disasters.

To me, this is a God that we as believers should fall on our faces before, in awe of His power and in serious respect for both His holiness and willingness to exact judgement whenever and wherever He sees fit.


We are the sinners, and His children are the vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory.
That we as believers are even in His grace speaks volumes regarding His willingness to show any mercy and goodness to men.
 
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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
God is the first cause of sin because He is the first cause of Salvation from sin.
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God never says that He is the first cause of sin, nor does He ever condone it, BF.
That He knew what would happen and provided for it far in advance, is not the same as Him being the cause of it:

" Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. " ( James 1:12-15 ).

Please read it again, my friend, and try not to let reason overtake what He has declared about Himself.

He specifically tells us that He is not the cause of sin...
Satan was the first sinner, and he baited us into following him.

That the Lord knew intimately what would happen and allowed it to happen ( perhaps even maneuvering things around knowing what would happen if He put things together a certain way ), speaks of His greater purpose in both His judgment and the salvation of His elect.
 
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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Gods purpose from eternity was in Jesus Christ the Saviour of His People Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
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Your changing horses mid stream BF.

No one is questioning God purpose in sending Christ Jesus. John stated that clearly here:
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

We have and continue to question your assertion that "Gods purpose is the author of sin,"
 
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